Re: RFC/Discuss: Replace KDE by LXDE on LTSP?
Hello Knut,
I like your point of view very much. And I'd like to correct a few
things about LXDE as I maintain most of LXDE related packages in Debian.
* LXDE is not just a window manager
You cannot replacing the KWin Window Manager with which is default in
KDE with LXDE. Cause LXDE is a Desktop Environment with many tiny
components. The default Windows Manager in LXDE is 'openbox' which also
fit freedesktop.org standard. So you can replace KWin with openbox I think.
* The benchmark is using XFCE, not LXDE.
This article didn't compare with LXDE. It's XFCE in the article:
http://ktown.kde.org/~seli/memory/desktop_benchmark.html
I am packaging new LXDE components with lxde-common 0.4 release. And I'd
to see the real desktop_benchmark on recently version of these DEs.
* The lxlauncer is not default
The lxlauncher is just one of the tiny components in LXDE and not
required to install by default. Cause it's not necessary to have tabbed
menu for normal desktop.
* LXDE works much fast than netbook 'remix' on real netbook
I just installed Ubuntu 9.04 netbook 'remix' on my eeepc 701 for test.
The launcher looks very good. But whole system works unbelievable show.
So I revert it back to Debian+LXDE after 1hour. :(
* Progress on LXDE
LXDE team have met Marc Shuttleworth in Berlin, he agreed to have
lubuntu: http://blog.lxde.org/?p=208
LXDE is one of the standard install of Debian 5.0
LXDE run on Android and work on more improvements for mobile platforms:
http://blog.lxde.org/?p=248
LXDE has translated into languages now covering 658 million non-English
speaking people.
Fedora/Redhat is using LXDE on the OLPC Afghanistan project to run a
double start (one system two desktop environments) on the XO, Mario
Behling of the LXDE team has been more than a month to Afghanistan
supporting the deployment of 10.000 XOs.
I really wish we can have LXDE as an alternative. So that our users can
choose LXDE on XOs and others. :)
-Andrew
Knut Yrvin wrote:
> Torsdag 23. april 2009, skrev RalfGesellensetter:
>> Klaus Knopper replaced KDE by LXDE to reduce startup time (especially
>> for netbooks), and thus I have been using this new desktop
>> environment for some weeks, now.
>
> Skolelinux 3.0 is running LDM as a login manager on thin clients with
> LTSP. This is slower than KDM.
>
> You can replace LDM with KDM, and speed things up a little. But you'll
> miss the secure ssh tunnel which has some security benefits clients
> connected to a network hub. When running a switch, package sniffing is not
> as easy.
>
> Second issue is not as obvious. It's about memory usage. Replacing the
> KWin Windows Manager with which is default in KDE with LXDE, may use
> more memory in the most common usage of the client machines. This
> article[1] explains how and why:
>
> 1. http://ktown.kde.org/~seli/memory/desktop_benchmark.html
>
> This memory walk trough is backed up by several municipalities and
> businesses. They states that they run 50-60 thin clients with KDE on
> LTSP servers with 4 GB RAM. Some even run 70 clients with such memory
> configuration. Other Windows Managers only allow 30-40 clients in the
> most common use cases according to system administrators. How does such
> numbers scale?
>
> When running 1000 thin clients or more at schools with the servers
> placed centrally at town hall, they can manage this with 16-17 servers
> running KDM+KWin+KDE. Or they can go for 25 servers with an other
> Windows Manager. It may not seems a big difference when running one
> server. But when running 1000 clients or more, a difference between 17
> and 25 is 8, which may cost 18.000 Euro for those additional servers.
> And is this economic climate, such numbers can be decisive.
>
> That said. I was in Narvik this weekend. They had added 4 more GB with
> RAM on their 5 years old servers, now having 8 GB RAM. Then they added
> more thin clients and low fat clients (diskless) to the servers. They
> also enforced the network with better switches for handling the network
> load.
>
>> I've always been a big fan of KDE (and contributed within my
>> possibilities to the KDE project), but I also like the lite and yet
>> comfortable appearance of LXDE. Especially for less powerfull
>> hardware, this desktop is a real alternative.
>
> The strong point of LXDE is on netbooks with a smaller screen, cause the
> lxlaunchers tabbed menu[2][3]. Ubuntus netbook remix launcher seems to
> have taken this a small step further[4].
>
> 2. http://lxde.org/lxlauncher
> 3.
> http://lxde.org/lxlauncher_simple_tab_set_according_freedesktoporg_standards
> 4. http://www.markshuttleworth.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/nb-remix-
> launcher.png
>
>> The backdraw must be mentioned: While the desktop comes up very
>> quickly, many stuff is only loaded just in time (causing pauses
>> during work); this includes sub-menues of the start menu, and of
>> course libraries and daemons (qt/DCOP for instance).
>
> KDM boots fairly quick on thin client machines run from a central
> server. Yes, some other Window Managers allow faster startup. But often
> other things slows things down even more, as work done by Intel
> shows[5]:
>
> 5. http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS7654890804.html
>
>> Regarding the LTSP usecase, most services have been started right
>> beforehand, anyway, so popcon should tell us more -
>>
>> and of course, your personal comment to this thread
>
> Strangely it's LDM which are slower than KDM (the KDE login manager) in
> Skolelinux. The reason? We had to address some security concerns on
> networks with hub's.
>
> The startup issue is an ongoing story, especially now with netbooks,
> Mobile Internet Devices and Linux on phones etc. E.g the startup of KDE4
> is dramatically reduced cause of a total cleanup of the libraries
> compared to KDE3. The libraries needed in KDE4 is reduced with
> approximately 60-70 percent compared with KDE3. Also Qt4 libraries beats
> the dust out for Qt3 performance wise, where Qt4 is made for phones and
> embedded devices. Qt3 was not really used on phones.
>
> Also, KDE 4.2 is not really ready for huge deployment yet. 4.3 will be
> the first version for such large installations we see at schools. KDE4.2
> has not gotten all the essential KDE3 applications ported to Qt4 and
> KDE4 yet. Then some KDE3 applications are still running, as you can see
> with Kubuntu 9.04. This configuration uses more memory. Then you're Linux
> box is running both a KDE3 and KDE4 library stack. This situations will
> change soon, since the last applications (as KMix) are now ported. Then
> sticking to KDE 3.5 in Skolelinux two more years is not a big thing
> (including a Gnome for those who prefer that).
>
> But running the latest and greatest on netbook with additional bling as
> KDE4 gives, is a really good thing. Giving Windows users a better than
> Vista experience on a Linux desktop. This may make a difference - shown
> in this hilarious reportage done by ZDnet in Australia:
>
> http://www.zdnet.com.au/insight/software/soa/Is-it-Windows-7-or-
> KDE-4-/0,139023769,339294810,00.htm
>
> Best regards
>
> Knut Yrvin
>
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