Re: CDD-package inside of Debian or out?
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On 18-05-2005 21:33, cobaco (aka Bart Cornelis) wrote:
> On Wednesday 18 May 2005 16:39, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
>>Debian provides choices of software packages and generic configurations
>>for a local admin to pick from and customize further.
>
>
> agreed
>
>
>>CDDs take away choices and automate customization (and maybe more).
>
>
> ah, here I disagree, I don't see a CDD as something taking away choices, I
> rather see a CDD as providing a set of default choices, in other words:
> - Debian-proper provides a generic starting point and supports it
> - CDD's provide starting points tailored to a certain target group/situation
> and support those
When a CDD includes only postfix and not 5-10 alternative MTAs, then it
is removing the choice of MTA When a CDD includes KDE and not other
desktop frameworks then it is also removing choice.
You could argue that one could simply pull in other packages from the
Debian archive, but that is not the CDD providing choice, but the local
admin overriding the CDD choice limitations.
> The idea being that you want to help people (often not interested in ICT an
> sich) use Debian for their purpose, without _requiring_ them to deal with
> the multidude of choices that Debian offers.
I certainly agree. I don't see it as evil to take away choice (when you
don't _forcefully_ do it: the local admin can pull in other sources).
> Of course the more you deviate from a given CDD's idea of how, the more
> you'll have to shoulder the maintenance load yourself, but even then you
> don't have to start from scratch.
Exactly: If you override the limited set of choices given to you by your
CDD, you effectively are on your own.
Skolelinux cannot help you with problems running your Gnome desktop on
top of Skolelinux - for obvious reasons: It is undocumented and
unsupported by Skolelinux. That doesn't mean it won't work, but it does
mean that the safety of choosing a distribution is lost.
Maybe only small things break and the distro maintainers can still help
you with the rest, but you really can't tell if what you hack will start
an avalanche.
> Note: that doesn't take away that CDD's should try to be flexible, and play
> nice with deviations from their norm as much as possible.
>
> Note also that it should be possible to combine CDD's, which will get
> harder, I think, If they're all outside of Debian. Some example
> combinations I can easily see happening:
> - debian-edu + debian-jr on a kindergarten class computer
> - debian-edu + demudi on a music class computer
> - debian-edu + debian-office-worker (yeah I now doesn't exist ATM) on the
> school administrative staff's computers
> - debian-edu + ichtux on computer in religion class
> - debian-edu + debian-gis in geography class
> - ...
I certainly agree. But those combos are CDDs as well: The combination of
Skolelinux (using KDE) and a GNOME-loving CDD needs its own tweaks,
testing and maintainance. Maybe not much, but probably enough to not
have a feel of "just works" as seen from an end-user.
So - the ideal is that we all CDDs are within Debian - represented as a
single cddtk-dependent package. That requires all hacks, additions and
tweaks to be within Debian too. Which requires them all to comply with
Debian Policy. Which means no direct messing with configuration files of
other packages. Which means all package hacks wanted by the CDD must be
acknowledged by the actual package maintainer (by default or tweakable
by debconf values or through other official means). Which means tweaks
are no more.
When that is solved, we want CDDs usable as combos. That requires CDD
packages not only testing that they work with themselves, but also that
they somehow can adapt to defaults pushed onto them. Example: KDE-based
distros want aRts by default in each and every application, while
GNOME-based distros want Esound. Who wins, and how is it decided amongst
distros?
Only solution as I see it is that Debian adopts metaquestions like
"which sound daemon to use as default (if any)?" - similarly to the
current choice of desktop manager (between KDM, GDM and XDM). Until
Debian adopts the questions (that is, until all relevant packages
supports the relevant shared debconf questions) it can only be solved by
overriding the packages, which is Policy Violation, so must be unofficial.
I believe we want the same thing - I just expect the goal to be far
enough away that we should use CDDs as showcases for Debian to get
package maintainers to realize what cool things could be done if they
adopted the technologies.
I propose "tweaks" not because I want them to last, but because I want
our interim hacks to be easily adoptable by package maintainers!
Hope I made my point clear.
- Jonas
- --
* Jonas Smedegaard - idealist og Internet-arkitekt
* Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/
- Enden er nær: http://www.shibumi.org/eoti.htm
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