To: Pirate Praveen <praveen@onenetbeyond.org>, debian-dug-in@lists.debian.org From: Jonas Smedegaard <dr@jones.dk> Subject: Re: Welcome Rahul (was Re: New debian package maintainers - Sudeesh and Sagar) Quoting Pirate Praveen (2016-02-11 16:02:37) > On Thursday 11 February 2016 08:12 PM, Jonas Smedegaard wrote: >>> As for IRC vs XMPP, mobile support for IRC can't match that of XMPP. >> >> True, but technical features are far less important than community. >> >> >>> You cannot force people to use a computer all the time. >> >> I am not forcing anyone to do anything here, only encouraging - >> insistingly - to join existing community, not fork a new one. > > And by that you are excluding the new people that want to join by > raising the bar higher (I think IRC has a higher barrier to entry than > XMPP on mobile for folks who are familiar with WhatsApp adn Telegram > groups) We are all excluding, including you: Only those (not yet existing, I believe) who *bridge* easier-to-use XMPP with where-existing-developers-are IRC are not excluding! >>> We want to use and promote it for everyday use and being online on >>> Debian India via XMPP is much more easier than adding another layer >>> of IRC. >> >> You confuse matters here: It is *not* easier to setup decentralized >> XMPP servers - I believe your current MUC runs on a single host which >> is *less* decentralized than the "bad" irc. > > We can move servers around easily, if required, Huh? All users currently hardcode the hostname of the MUC. How to "easily move" that? > and client accounts are decentralized. True, but pretty irrelevant in the context of public shared chatrooms (a.k.a. MUC in XMPP-speak). >> True, offline-buffering can be offered server-side for XMPP and not >> for irc - which brings a slight benefit, but with that big loss of >> needing the community to shift over. >> > > It gives a familiar environment to newbies used to WhatsApp and > Telegram kind of groups (though we will need to polish xmpp muc). Seems your comment here is unrelated to what you quote right above. >>> Most of the discussions are mentoring newbies and those are already >>> documented. >> >> So discussions like "how to best setup an APT proxy?" and "how to >> build in clean environment?" are fine to discuss in a vacuum? Please >> elaborate! > > > They do have to join the mailing lists and they are directed to debian > wiki and documentation. > > I don't think the newbies will be stuck on XMPP forever, they will > have to interact with the community anyway and they will learn to use > whatever tools required once they grow up in the community. > > But insisting on IRC when a better medium exist is in my opinion > elitist. We don't care for you, if you don't use our tools is not a > good thing to say to newbies. > > We are always a difficult community for newbies to join and our > efforts are only to make that easier. If we do realize the cons > outweigh the pros, we'll consider abandoning it. Thanks for elaborating. Regarding our community being difficult for newbies, I believe it is the wrong approach to protect newbies from us: Let's improve by working together most possible (i.e. not only lists and wiki, but realtime chat too!). Regarding our choice of tools being "elitist", I believe the proper solution to that is to bridge, not fork! - Jonas -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private
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