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[APT+dpkg] Ad-hoc dpkg/APT meeting



Hi,

There was a meeting about APT and dpkg yesterday.

Attendees: DonKult, jak, aj, mvo, XTaran, matm, mones, guillem, nthykier


 * APT announced some new features.  These are already on d-d-a, so I
   will skip over them.

 * Guillem suggested that APT moved its packages lists to a "neutral"
   place, so dpkg could leverage these files (and possibly get rid of
   its "Available" file).

   - There was some debate how this should be done.  Notable remarks:

     + The files would not be merged as they are needed for further
       updates

     + There was a concern about the requirements for updating the
       files there.  So far only APT is doing to implement all the
       necessary parts for doing it "right".

     + There was a concern about the file names being implementation
       details and perhaps a frontend tool should be used instead.

 * There was a suggestion to separate the "acquire" system from APT to
   have it as a stand-alone feature.

   - It was not apparent that the "acquire" system could trivially be
     separated from APT.

 * The issue about how to handle "install ordering" in APT vs. dpkg and
   how to avoid --force-* options.

   - Currently, APT uses a lot of --force options.  Both APT and dpkg
     maintainers agreed that this should be fixed.

   - The dpkg maintainers suggested that APT used selections to avoid
     the --force options.

     - Selections can cause packages to be removed/deconfigured "under
       APT's feet".  APT would need to use the "--status-fd" to keep
       track of such changes.

   - It was agreed that APT should leave more of the low-level ordering
     to dpkg.  Among other things to better handle triggers.

     - APT was still welcome to split things into smaller
       "self-contained" units to minimise downtime etc.
       (see below)

   - On the other hand, dpkg would need to fully support the ordering
     requirements needed.

     - I did not quite catch this part.  At Guillem's request I noted
       the "two big states" as a keyword.

 * The APT maintainers would like a way/method to have "temporal" or
   "transaction lived" selections.

   - It might be needed for multiple dpkg invocations (possibly by
     reusing the same selection set with each call).

 * The APT maintainers would look into optimising for minimal downtime
   (which would involve admins to decide which services to prioritise)

   - I heard "Policy" mentioned, but I wasn't sure it was a system
     admin policy, the Debian policy or a third one.

 * It was agreed to moved the extended status fully to dpkg, which
   already provides an extensible format.

 * Guillem mentioned that dpkg (and maybe APT) should probably start
   supporting re-exec'ing themselves during the run.

   - It would hopefully allow some features to be used during regular
     upgrades (rather than waiting for another release)

   - In particular, with dpkg doing most of the ordering now (see
     above), it would no longer be (guaranteed to) upgraded early.


Please let me know if I missed anything, or I misremembered something.
Sadly my notes were a bit sparser than I would have liked (and my memory
might have suffered from the "Wine & Cheese party syndrome" after the
meeting). :)

Thanks,
~Niels


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