Re: debian-devel-digest Digest - unsubscribe
--- debian-devel-digest-request@lists.debian.org
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> ATTACHMENT part 1 message/rfc822
>
> debian-devel-digest Digest Volume 2004 : Issue
> 738
>
> Today's Topics:
> Re: Dehs: To few watch file filled f [ Daniel
> Burrows <dburrows@debian.org ]
> Re: Please stop breaking things [ Goswin von
> Brederlow <brederlo@info ]
> Bug#247399: ITP: httping -- ping-lik [ David
> Moreno Garza <damog@damog.net ]
> Resignation [ Herbert Xu
> <herbert@gondor.apana.or ]
> Re: Re: Dehs: To few watch file fill [ Michael
> Stone <mstone@debian.org> ]
> Getting my GPG key signed at the 'Li [ Simon
> MARTIN <simon.martin@gmx.at> ]
> Re: Experimental countrychooser bran [ Chris
> Cheney <ccheney@cheney.cx> ]
> Re: Resignation [ Anibal
> Monsalve Salazar <anibal@its ]
> Re: Mass bug filing: Cryptographic p [ Herbert Xu
> <herbert@gondor.apana.or ]
> Re: Mass bug filing: Cryptographic p [ Matthew
> Palmer <mpalmer@debian.org> ]
> Re: Social Contract GR's Affect on s [
> tb@becket.net (Thomas Bushnell, BSG ]
> Re: Experimental countrychooser bran [ Ben Burton
> <bab@debian.org> ]
> Get pain pills cheaper [ "Alden
> Fritz" <afritz_kx@stanford.e ]
> Re: Mass bug filing: Cryptographic p [ Chad
> Walstrom <chewie@wookimus.net> ]
> Re: Dehs: To few watch file filled f [ Bluefuture
> <bluefuture@email.it> ]
> kernel maintenance [ Andres
> Salomon <dilinger@voxel.net> ]
> Re: Resignation [ "Jamin W.
> Collins" <jcollins@asgard ]
> Re: Please stop breaking things (was [ David
> Nusinow <david_nusinow@verizo ]
>
> ATTACHMENT part 2 message/rfc822
> Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 18:00:40 -0400
> From: Daniel Burrows <dburrows@debian.org>
> To: Blars Blarson <blarson@blars.org>
> CC: debian-devel@lists.debian.org
> Subject: Re: Dehs: To few watch file filled from
> Debian Mantainers
>
> On Tue, May 04, 2004 at 01:51:29PM -0700, Blars
> Blarson <blarson@blars.org> was heard to say:
> > Did you consider the possiblity that many package
> maintainers don't find
> > the Watch file useful? Such things as:
> >
> > Upstream is package maintainer.
> >
> > Upstream development is dead.
> >
> > Package maintainer on upstream mailing list.
>
> Or,
>
> Upstream development requires a click-through
> page to get the source;
> no directory listing is available.
> (too common these days :( )
>
> Daniel
>
> --
> /-------------------- Daniel Burrows
> <dburrows@debian.org> -------------------\
> | Will the last person to leave the
> Universe please |
> | turn off the lights and close the
> door? |
> \---------------------- A duck! --
> http://www.python.org ---------------------/
>
> ATTACHMENT part 3 message/rfc822
> Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 00:22:59 +0200
> From: Goswin von Brederlow
> <brederlo@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>
> To: Andreas Barth <aba@not.so.argh.org>
> CC: Herbert Xu <herbert@gondor.apana.org.au>,
> debian-devel@lists.debian.org
> Subject: Re: Please stop breaking things
>
> Andreas Barth <aba@not.so.argh.org> writes:
>
> > * Goswin von Brederlow
> (brederlo@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de) [040504
> 18:40]:
> >> [digital signed firmware]
> >> Since you can't take the original source and
> rebuild the firmware
> >> image, even with all the compilers and tools
> originally used, I would
> >> say no.
> >
> > (It's a bit unfair to answer to a mail of Goswin,
> because he did bring
> > neither this nor any of the other topics up -
> there are other people
> > whom my answer fits much better.)
> >
> > Short to say: Don't we have any real problems?
>
> Especially more pressing ones. In the short term,
> and quite opposed to
> the long term stated before (you were all talking
> long term, right?),
> keeping non-free blobs and getting sarge out is far
> more usefull and
> pressing to the users.
>
> > Our Social Contract declars that our priorities
> are our users and the
> > free software community. It does not declare that
> our priorities are
> > to troll around, never release and willful create
> show-stoppers.
> >
> > We, Debian, are now at the crossroads: What do we
> want? Do we want to
> > build the best free operating system, used by lot
> of users? Or do we
> > want to tell us how good we are, neglect our users
> and never release.
> > Please re-read what Ian has said. He is absolutly
> right.
> >
> > Please remember that every formal text that is not
> inconsistent has
> > holes in it - this is a proven sentence, and we
> cannot avoid it. So,
> > _please_ lets keep the fundamental texts clear,
> short and
> > comprehensible - and take them with a grain of
> salt, because we know
> > that there are bordercases, and our texts cannot
> match all bordercases.
> >
> >
> >
> > I'm very sorry for these harsh words, but we must
> really be very
> > cautious that we don't loose our good
> distribution, our sensible
> > decisions and our best developers. Creating a
> free, good and open
> > distribution is a really diffuclt thing, and if we
> ignore this fact, we
> > will loose at least one of our great results.
> Please, let's fix bugs
> > instead of creating new problems.
>
> Hear hear.
>
> MfG
> Goswin
>
> ATTACHMENT part 4 message/rfc822
> Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 17:03:59 -0500
> From: David Moreno Garza <damog@damog.net>
> To: Debian Bug Tracking System
> <submit@bugs.debian.org>
> Subject: Bug#247399: ITP: httping -- ping-like
> program but for http-requests
>
> Package: wnpp
> Severity: wishlist
>
>
> * Package name : httping
> Version : 0.0.91
> Upstream Author : Folkert van Heusden
> <folkert@vanheusden.com>
> * URL :
> http://www.vanheusden.com/httping/
> * License : GPL
> Description : ping-like program but for
> http-requests
>
> httping show you how long it takes to connect to a
> hostname or remote url;
> send a request and retrieve the reply (only the
> headers).
>
> -- System Information:
> Debian Release: testing/unstable
> APT prefers unstable
> APT policy: (500, 'unstable'), (1, 'experimental')
> Architecture: i386 (i686)
> Kernel: Linux 2.6.5
> Locale: LANG=C, LC_CTYPE=POSIX
>
> ATTACHMENT part 5 message/rfc822
> Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 08:07:55 +1000
> From: Herbert Xu <herbert@gondor.apana.org.au>
> To: debian-boot@lists.debian.org,
> debian-devel@lists.debian.org
> Subject: Resignation
>
> Denis Barbier <barbier@linuxfr.org> wrote:
> >
> > KDE control center in Debian displays Taiwanese
> flag, so you should
> > certainly resign from Debian and join Fedora.
> Well I did not check
> > if Fedora still censors it, but as Red Hat did,
> there is little
> > chance that this has changed.
>
> So be it.
>
> Free software extremists I can live with. But this
> is too much.
> I will resign from this project in two weeks time.
>
> In the mean, please send me offers to maintain my
> packages in *private*.
> Any packages which are not claimed for in two weeks
> time will be orphaned
> and th usual rules shall apply.
> --
> Debian GNU/Linux 3.0 is out! (
> http://www.debian.org/ )
> Email: Herbert Xu ~{PmV>HI~}
> <herbert@gondor.apana.org.au>
> Home Page: http://gondor.apana.org.au/~herbert/
> PGP Key:
> http://gondor.apana.org.au/~herbert/pubkey.txt
>
> ATTACHMENT part 6 message/rfc822
> Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 18:31:05 -0400
> From: Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org>
> To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org,
> debian-qa@lists.debian.org
> Subject: Re: Re: Dehs: To few watch file filled from
> Debian Mantainers
>
> On Wed, May 05, 2004 at 01:25:10AM +0200, Bluefuture
> wrote:
> >In all this cases, is it so hard for Mantainers to
> fill watch file in
> >their own packages for Qa pourposes?
>
> We've had this argument before and the problem
> remains that many
> devlopers don't see a point to putting one in. It's
> not that it's hard,
> it's that they're not interested.
>
> Mike Stone
>
> ATTACHMENT part 7 message/rfc822
> Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 01:17:53 +0200
> From: Simon MARTIN <simon.martin@gmx.at>
> To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org
> Subject: Getting my GPG key signed at the
> 'Linuxwochen' in Linz / Austria at
> 04/05/13, 14 or 15
>
> Dear debian-developers!
>
> I have to note, that I've not yet startet the
> NM-process, but I intend
> to do so once I feel ready to (which definitely is
> not the case at
> present). To be honest, this won't be the case too
> soon, because my
> first package has not even shipped to the official
> tree of Debian yet,
> and I want to learn much more about Debian before
> trying to become part
> of it officialy.
> Anyways, if it is possible to get my GPG key signed
> before even having
> startet the NM-process, I want to ask for somebody
> who will join the
> 'Linuxwochen' in Linz / Austria between the 13th and
> the 15th of May and
> is willing to sign my key. I think this would be a
> good chance, because
> I've seen no DD is from upper austria, and I don't
> get to the other
> parts of Austria too often (although, it of course
> would be possible if
> really required).
>
> Thanks in advance and kind regards,
> Simon
>
> ATTACHMENT part 7.2 application/pgp-signature
> ATTACHMENT part 8 message/rfc822
> Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 18:32:47 -0500
> From: Chris Cheney <ccheney@cheney.cx>
> To: Denis Barbier <barbier@linuxfr.org>
> CC: debian-boot@lists.debian.org,
> debian-devel@lists.debian.org,
> Herbert Xu <herbert@gondor.apana.org.au>
> Subject: Re: Experimental countrychooser branch
>
> On Tue, May 04, 2004 at 08:01:42PM +0200, Denis
> Barbier wrote:
> > On Tue, May 04, 2004 at 06:31:51PM +1000, Herbert
> Xu wrote:
> > > Christian Perrier <bubulle@debian.org> wrote:
> > > > Quoting Herbert Xu
> (herbert@gondor.apana.org.au):
> > > >
> > > >> If this is your attitude, then I shall resign
> this project. I do not
> > > >> wish to be associated with people who're
> actively working towards the
> > > >> independence of Taiwan.
> > > >
> > > > I you're asking about my personal feelings
> about TW independence, I
> > >
> > > No I'm not talking about your personal opinion
> on TW independence.
> > > I'm talking about what actions you're taking as
> the Debian maintainer
> > > of the package in question.
> > >
> > > If your action is to change a list from the
> ISO/UN in a way that appears
> > > to appease the people in favour of independence,
> then I have no choice
> > > but to resign from this project.
> >
> > KDE control center in Debian displays Taiwanese
> flag, so you should
> > certainly resign from Debian and join Fedora.
> Well I did not check
> > if Fedora still censors it, but as Red Hat did,
> there is little
> > chance that this has changed.
>
> Not only does KDE show it but it appears I have
> found taiwan flags in
> all of the following packages:
>
> awstats
> kdebase-data
> gnome-icon-theme
> mysql-doc
> netpanzer-data
> ntop
> openoffice.org
> wims-common
> wordtrans-data
> xfig-libs
> xqf
>
> Chris
>
> ATTACHMENT part 8.2 application/pgp-signature
name=signature.asc
> ATTACHMENT part 9 message/rfc822
> Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 09:34:41 +1000
> From: Anibal Monsalve Salazar
> <anibal@its.monash.edu.au>
> To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org
> Subject: Re: Resignation
>
> On Wed, May 05, 2004 at 08:07:55AM +1000, Herbert Xu
> wrote:
> >Denis Barbier <barbier@linuxfr.org> wrote:
> >>KDE control center in Debian displays Taiwanese
> flag, so you should
> >>certainly resign from Debian and join Fedora.
> Well I did not check
> >>if Fedora still censors it, but as Red Hat did,
> there is little
> >>chance that this has changed.
> >
> >So be it.
> >
> >Free software extremists I can live with. But this
> is too much.
>
> This message starts a new thread and I cannot see
> clearly the reason
> for your reaction.
>
> >I will resign from this project in two weeks time.
>
> Please reconsider your decision. It will be very
> unfortunate to see you
> leaving the project.
>
> >In the mean, please send me offers to maintain my
> packages in *private*.
> >Any packages which are not claimed for in two weeks
> time will be orphaned
> >and th usual rules shall apply.
>
> Anibal Monsalve Salazar
> --
> .''`. Debian GNU/Linux | Building 28C
> : :' : Free Operating System | Monash University
> VIC 3800, Australia
> `. `' http://debian.org/ |
> http://www-personal.monash.edu/~anibal/
> `- |
>
> ATTACHMENT part 9.2 application/pgp-signature
> ATTACHMENT part 10 message/rfc822
> Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 09:23:36 +1000
> From: Herbert Xu <herbert@gondor.apana.org.au>
> To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org
> Subject: Re: Mass bug filing: Cryptographic
> protection against modification
>
> John Hasler <john@dhh.gt.org> wrote:
> >
> > not include everything needed to generate a usable
> binary. In fact, one
> > could argue that such a thing is even less free
> than a plain binary since
> > there is no way at all to make modifications: you
> can't even patch the
> > binary.
>
> What if they shipped the signature separately?
> --
> Debian GNU/Linux 3.0 is out! (
> http://www.debian.org/ )
> Email: Herbert Xu ~{PmV>HI~}
> <herbert@gondor.apana.org.au>
> Home Page: http://gondor.apana.org.au/~herbert/
> PGP Key:
> http://gondor.apana.org.au/~herbert/pubkey.txt
>
> ATTACHMENT part 11 message/rfc822
> Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 09:42:29 +1000
> From: Matthew Palmer <mpalmer@debian.org>
> To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org
> Subject: Re: Mass bug filing: Cryptographic
> protection against modification
>
> On Tue, May 04, 2004 at 10:08:29AM -0500, John
> Hasler wrote:
> > I wrote:
> > > Doesn't seem likely. What purpose would such a
> thing serve?
> >
> > Matt writes:
> > > The attempted inclusion of otherwise-DFSG
> software into Debian main
> > > intended to run on hardware which will only
> accept a crypto-signed
> > > binary? Presumably because someone wants Debian
> to support the hardware
> > > in question. I will find it interesting to see
> whether that software is
> > > accepted by ftpmasters and the debian-legal
> mavens, as the software
> > > licence is Free, but the source code is of
> near-to-zero usefulness, so
> > > the question of the Freeness of the source is
> academic.
> >
> > But why would a manufacturer ship such a thing?
> It doesn't protect his
> > secrets because he is shipping source, so what is
> the point?
>
> Aah, yes. The major point I would see is to comply
> with the letter of the
> "Free Software" mantra ("we want source, we want
> source") while being able
> to ensure that bug reports you get are due to
> problems in what you've
> supplied, rather than being caused by whatever
> random hacks the user made.
>
> Another situation would be where the hardware *has*
> to be able to really trust
> the firmware that is running on it; I presume that
> crypto systems would
> typically be in this boat (modulo some fancy
> engineering to make the
> software untrustneeded (what a word)), and there
> would also be situations
> where you *must* be running validated/tested code
> (think medical devices) in
> order for the total system to be usable.
>
> > > Call it perverse curiousity...
> >
> > Well, we call them the Debian Free Software
> _Guidelines_. If the
> > crypto-keyed hardware is the only existing
> hardware the stuff could run on
> > I'd call it non-free because the supplied source
> is incomplete: it does
> > not include everything needed to generate a usable
> binary. In fact, one
> > could argue that such a thing is even less free
> than a plain binary since
> > there is no way at all to make modifications: you
> can't even patch the
> > binary.
>
> Ayup. The question which would be considered would
> be: "does this software
> have uses beyond supporting this crypto-protected
> hardware?". There might
> be a way to tell the hardware to ignore the crypto,
> or there might be a
> non-crypto'd version, or the software could contain
> some useful stuff that
> other software could benefit from. But that's going
> to be a very
> case-by-case thing, I think.
>
> > It occurs to me that someone might ship such a
> thing in a vain attempt to
> > reconcile Free Software and some sort of DRM
> hardware.
>
> Yup, that's a definite possibility. I'm looking
> very curiously at what all
> this Palladium stuff is actually going to do to the
> world.
>
> - Matt
>
> ATTACHMENT part 12 message/rfc822
> Date: 04 May 2004 16:45:41 -0700
> From: tb@becket.net (Thomas Bushnell, BSG)
> To: "Francesco P. Lovergine" <frankie@debian.org>
> CC: debian-devel@lists.debian.org,
> debian-vote@lists.debian.org
> Subject: Re: Social Contract GR's Affect on sarge
>
> "Francesco P. Lovergine" <frankie@debian.org>
> writes:
>
> > I'm just saying that by a practical point of view
> who thinks so is
> > pretending that hardware is free too.
>
> No, I'm not pretending that hardware is free. It
> may well not be,
> which is why we don't distribute it.
>
> > Your point of view is that firmware is software.
>
> *Real* firmware is not software. But *real*
> firmware is *firm*, that
> is, you can't change it easily: it's in a ROM. And
> nobody is asking
> us to distribute it.
>
> "Downloadable firmware" is software, however, and is
> quite different,
> and the question is should we distribute it?
>
> > I see no difference between microcode loaded on
> CPU (just as an
> > example) and that loaded by the kernel to have
> hardware working.
> > Really no difference.
>
> Both may well be non free, and we should distribute
> neither if they
> are non-free.
>
> ATTACHMENT part 13 message/rfc822
> Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 11:30:27 +1000
> From: Ben Burton <bab@debian.org>
> To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org
> Subject: Re: Experimental countrychooser branch
>
> On Tue, May 04, 2004 at 06:31:51PM +1000, Herbert Xu
> wrote:
> > If your action is to change a list from the ISO/UN
> in a way that appears
> > to appease the people in favour of independence,
> then I have no choice
> > but to resign from this project.
>
> Of course you have a choice. It might be a noble
> sacrifice of a pastime
> you hold dear in the name of a greater political
> ideal, but nobody is
> forcing you.
>
> Ben.
>
> ATTACHMENT part 14 message/rfc822
> Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 02:06:02 +0000
> From: "Alden Fritz" <afritz_kx@stanford.edu>
> To: debian-debbugs@lists.debian.org,
> debian-devel@lists.debian.org
> Subject: Get pain pills cheaper
>
---------------------------------
Buy your drug of choice, NO prescription required
Today's special: Free overnight Fedex delivery
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Buy them here
> ATTACHMENT part 15 message/rfc822
> Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 21:10:32 -0500
> From: Chad Walstrom <chewie@wookimus.net>
> To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org
> Subject: Re: Mass bug filing: Cryptographic
> protection against modification
>
> On Tue, May 04, 2004 at 08:11:03PM +1000, Herbert Xu
> wrote:
> > Consider the hypothetical case of a piece of
> firmware for a peripheral
> > device that is protected by a cryptographic
> signature such that the
> > device will reject anything that is not signed
> using a specific key.
>
> This isn't so hypothetical. I ran into problems
> trying to install an
> "unsanctioned" mini-pci wireless card in an IBM T30,
> only to find that
> the BIOS refused to allow me to boot into an
> operating system until the
> card was removed. I was not a happy camper. If IBM
> is willing to do
> this at the BIOS level, what's to say that a video
> card manufacturer
> isn't willing to do this for their MPEG/2 encoder
> (loadable) firmware?
>
> Anyway, it sucks and it very non-free.
>
> --
> Chad Walstrom <chewie@wookimus.net>
> http://www.wookimus.net/
> assert(expired(knowledge)); /* core dump
> */
>
> ATTACHMENT part 15.2 application/pgp-signature
name=signature.asc
> ATTACHMENT part 16 message/rfc822
> Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 06:00:15 +0200
> From: Bluefuture <bluefuture@email.it>
> To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org
> CC: debian-qa@lists.debian.org, tbm@debian.org
> Subject: Re: Dehs: To few watch file filled from
> Debian Mantainers
>
> > It's not that it's hard,
> > it's that they're not interested.
>
> Well, they doesn't want to think to a little regular
> expression for help Qa
> Purposes?
> Or the problem is that all the Debian developer
> think that Dehs is bootless for helping
> Debian-qa?
>
> >Another reason why some packages don't have a
> watchfile currently, is
> >because the syntax doesn't support separate
> directories for upstream
> >main branches.
>
> I had commited (on dehs svn) two modded uscan
> version:
> uscan3.pl that actually is used by dehs and
> uscan_dirh2.pl that had
> added the support for recursive pattern matching in
> the directory in url
> for Watch file
>
i.e.http://ftp.gnome.org/pub/GNOME/sources/glade/(\d\.\[0,2,4,6,8])/glade-(\d.\d.\d.\tar.\gz)
>
> I don't want to fork uscan so i will don't done
> other modification (i.e.
> add tags on uscan prints for parsing different
> pourposes warning).
> I hope that this could be added in the official
> uscan script in the
> devscripts debian package.
>
> > Upstream development requires a click-through
> page to get the source;
> > no directory listing is available.
> > (too common these days :( )
>
> I really think that this could be a very, very
> little part between the different Upstream fetch
> cases.
>
> So we could statistically try a work:
> Every developer that had a package on
> http://dehs.alioth.debian.org/no_watch.html he could
> try to check if is it technically
> possible to formulate a Watch file for almost one of
> his.
>
> So we will could see that there are very few
> limitation about fill a watch file.
>
> Stefano
>
> ATTACHMENT part 17 message/rfc822
> Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 22:29:52 -0400
> From: Andres Salomon <dilinger@voxel.net>
> To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org
> Subject: kernel maintenance
>
> As I've mentioned to Herbert Xu privately, I believe
> kernel maintenance
> should be done by a group. I have yet to see an
> example of group
> maintenance being worse than package maintenance by
> an individual, and as
> the gnome group has proven, there can be quite an
> improvement. My suggestion
> is to form an alioth kernel packaging project. I am
> looking for other
> folks interested in helping maintain the debian
> kernel.
>
> ATTACHMENT part 18 message/rfc822
> Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 20:35:00 -0600
> From: "Jamin W. Collins" <jcollins@asgardsrealm.net>
> To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org
> Subject: Re: Resignation
>
> On Wed, May 05, 2004 at 09:34:41AM +1000, Anibal
> Monsalve Salazar wrote:
> > On Wed, May 05, 2004 at 08:07:55AM +1000, Herbert
> Xu wrote:
> > >Denis Barbier <barbier@linuxfr.org> wrote:
> > >>KDE control center in Debian displays Taiwanese
> flag, so you should
> > >>certainly resign from Debian and join Fedora.
> Well I did not check
> > >>if Fedora still censors it, but as Red Hat did,
> there is little
> > >>chance that this has changed.
> > >
> > >So be it.
> > >
> > >Free software extremists I can live with. But
> this is too much.
> >
> > This message starts a new thread and I cannot see
> clearly the reason
> > for your reaction.
>
> This thread appears to start on debian-boot here:
>
>
>
http://lists.debian.org/debian-boot/2004/05/msg00205.html
>
> --
> Jamin W. Collins
>
> "Never underestimate the power of very stupid people
> in large groups."
> -- John Kenneth Galbraith
>
> ATTACHMENT part 19 message/rfc822
> Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 22:39:28 -0400
> From: David Nusinow <david_nusinow@verizon.net>
> To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org
> CC: Andreas Barth <aba@not.so.argh.org>,
> Goswin von Brederlow
> <brederlo@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>,
> Herbert Xu <herbert@gondor.apana.org.au>
> Subject: Re: Please stop breaking things (was: Mass
> bug filing: Cryptographic protection against
> modification)
>
> On Tue, May 04, 2004 at 11:31:51PM +0200, Andreas
> Barth wrote:
> > Short to say: Don't we have any real problems?
>
> Yes, but this is just a lot of people's way of
> loudly declaring in a
> roundabout way that they don't want to work on d-i.
>
> - David Nusinow
>
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