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Re: non-DFSG section and CD distributers



> Leland> A more tolerant attitude might guard against Debian being
> Leland> perceived as dogmatic in it's idealism.
> 
> Webster's encyclopedic unabridged dictionary of the English language:
> dog ma: n. pl. -mas, -mata
>  1 System of principles or tenets, as of a church 
>  2 a specific tenet or doctrine authoratively laid down, as by a
>     church.
>  3 prescribed doctrine
>  4 settled or established opinion, belief, or principle
> 
> 	Methinks the DFSG qualifies ;-). I think I want to follow our
>  dogma and be idealistic. In this day and age, idealism is more
>  required than ever, though it does tend to get sneered at. 

and now we'll quote the dictionary?  anyone (Manoj) what's the Webster 
definition of free?

I'm serious too, I want to hear it here...

> 	Why do you feel the need to diffuse our idealism? Are we
>  trying to be popular? I think our commitment to the free software
>  paradigm has brought us where we are. Why mend something that works? 

There is a difference between idealism and extremism.  And is must not be 
working 100% if there are a significant amount of people complaining, of which 
there are.

> 	Yes, of course. The material is still there when needed, but
>  we do not have to promote it.

Invalid -- some of the software is perfectly good software whose authors are 
just as softwarily ethical as those of some of our favorite DFSG authors.

> Leland> My impression is that a vocal group of Debian developers
> Leland> _want_ to discourage the use of non-DFSG software.
> 
> 	Yes. And yes, I guess I am pretty vocal, though I'd like to
>  believe that I am a representative of the majority of developers.

I don't think you do.  But hey, just like you, who am I to say without a more 
organized way of taking a consensus. --a cold vote wouldn't exactly accomplish 
much here on such a multi-sided issue.

> Leland> I think there is a fear that non-DFSG software may become
> Leland> popular, and threaten the existence of "truly free" software.
> 
> 	Believe me, it is not stuff in non free we have to be scared
>  about then. Guess what is the wrold's most popular OS? 

Then why are we so pointlessly negative towards our non-free branch?

> Leland> (I think the sometimes venomous opposition to Qt is a result
> Leland> of this fear.  Motif seems to be perceived as less of a
> Leland> threat, so it is slightly more tolerated, even though it's
> Leland> licensing is more restrictive than Qt's.)
> 
> 	Nice theory.

Give me a break, Manoj, he's right to a certain extent.

> Leland> Personally, I think we could be a little more friendly to
> Leland> non-DFSG cost free software, and that it would not threaten
> Leland> the goals of the Debian Free Software Guidelines.
> 
> 	I am unfriendly to non-free software not because it threatens
>  debian. If that were indeed the case, this argument may have
>  merit. Do you think the DFSG are merely words? Rules that can be
>  bent? We _believe_ in the principle embodied in the DFSG. These are
>  not words we seek to have loopholes around.

They _are_ words, not the ten commandments.  Not the word of God.  Just a 
bunch of rules made up a qyite a while ago, not really ratified (and I've 
heard the story hear...), of which the group has changed since then...

> 	manoj
>  who is beginning to face up to the fact that he may well be a fanatick

aren't we all.  :-)

		Paul J Thompson




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