Kindly regards,
-Andrew
Rex Tsai wrote:
> Hi, Andrew,
>
> You quoted out of context in email to the public again. I replied the
> email at July 24th to DOT members only, to asked members who are
> available to have a discussion on this mater.
>
> I did not ask Joerg attend to this meeting. Why ? because
>
> * Joerg from SPI does not know about the local regulations.
>
> * DOT team does not full understand how SPI works, and what's changes
> and how to work with SPI based on local regulations. Also, the team need
> to study the laws and local regulations about tax reduction, overseas NGO.
>
> * The proposal was made by Andrew, and he refused to explain more
> details to the others. But only pushing the team transferred the domain
> name and assets to SPI, ignored the resolution we have made before the
> SPI proposal.
>
> * In this case, the team should have another poll after we have general
> understanding to decide
> 1. Do we want to join SPI as associated project ?
> 2. What's the best way (fulfill local regulations) to work with SPI ?
> 3. Who is project liaison to talk to SPI ?
> 4. If the process of join SPI takes too long, should we transfer the
> domain name from a not-in-good-relationship association to DOT member
> first ?
>
> * Since there are still many pending questions need to sort out, bring
> up this meeting with Joerg will be inefficiently. Get Joerg involved
> into these arguments is not a properly way to work with SPI.
>
> * Having a meeting with SPI in English before the team have a general
> resolution, is simply taking advantage of language skill, which push
> other DOT members out of this meeting.
>
> * The team does not say 'NO' to SPI, I am sure everyone is excited
> about this opportunity to work with SPI. But we need to seek the
> solution and understanding to make it happen.
>
> Our situation is a clear example to see why we should let a
> independent and friendly association managing the resources, but not
> handling by individual, who might have bad communication or run into
> different direction with the team.
>
> BTW, Andrew, your tai chi kung fu is more and more better. :)
>
> Best Regards,
> -Rex
>
> Andrew Lee wrote on 08/26/2009 05:51 PM:
>> Dear all,
>>
>> Thanks for Rex's input. Actually, this IRC meeting was a direct
>> suggestion made by Rex in his July 24th email response about the DOT issue:
>>
>> "I suggest Andrew arrange a meeting on IRC or Skype, when the others
>> who are interested about this matter to explain what's 'legal
>> organization' and have a discussion on Internet."
>>
>> I've faithfully adopted another request earlier as invite SPI folks to
>> join the discussion on DOT members' email thread.
>>
>> Joerg Jaspert(Vice-President of SPI) responded to the DOT members' email
>> thread on Aug. 4th. There has been no reply to Joerg’s input from the
>> DOT members until now. This is very encouraging to see feedbacks aiming
>> to address the DOT issue.
>>
>> I think we should continue the momentum to drive this IRC meeting to
>> seriously consider SPI’s initiative.
>>
>> Kindly regards,
>>
>> -Andrew
>>
>> Rex Tsai wrote:
>>> Hi, Andrew
>>>
>>> Thanks for response to the public, after ignoring Jesse's request in
>>> email and me for face-to-face discussion in DBP last weekend. :-)
>>>
>>> A few quick feedback on SPI cooperation (SPI is not an issue, please)
>>>
>>> * Since DOT is a local user group, which is managed by a local team. I
>>> am afraid not everyone can express and understand English properly in
>>> the IRC meeting, since English is not our native language. So, I
>>> suggested DOT team set up a meeting in Chinese which we can clear most
>>> of issues and misunderstandings before we as a team talk to SPI.
>>>
>>> * Also, if we decide to join SPI as associated project, we need to
>>> elect a project liaison from the DOT team, who can give authoritative
>>> decisions.
>>>
>>> * Regarding to the
debian.org.tw and
debian.tw (the DOT team secured
>>>
debian.tw lately from an non-debian-related commercial company). As a
>>> Debian promoter group, the DOT team is happy to manage the domain name
>>> in the best interests of that community. However, so far as I can see,
>>> transfer to SPI does not solving the managing problems, but increase
>>> more paper works only. Also, there are other associations manage Debian
>>> domain name in Japan, Norway, Spain and France. So, transfer the domain
>>> name and assets to SPI is not the only solution.
>>>
>>> * Anyone can apply SPI's non-contributing membership, and associated
>>> project can be contributing membership. I don't see how official
>>> presence is meaningful expect Andrew can present Taiwan users for his
>>> own political interests.
>>>
>>>> Andrew Lee wrote:
>>>> To have a SPI affiliated
Debian.Org.TW means that Taiwan will have an
>>>> official presence from the perspective of SPI’s view. The presence is
>>>> meaningful because so far attending Debian held international
>>>> conferences have been individual participation instead of representing
>>>> Taiwan as a whole
>>> * I agreed we need a non-profit organization to entrust the DOT's
>>> domain name and assets, I also agreed the organization should not be
>>> managed by only a few people. This issue is what we are trying to fix,
>>> at the mean time we also are not comfortable on the current situation.
>>> The domain name is registered under not-so-familiarity organization, and
>>> Andrew keep ignoring team's request to transfer it to trusted team member.
>>>
>>> * The DOT team have set up a focus group on studying the legal
>>> framework of SPI and local laws and regulations. The focus group
>>> currently has three members - Jesse Sung, Mat Lee and Rex Tsai. The
>>> others are welcome to join us.
>>>
>>> * Regarding to the tax reduction benefit, SPI as a US registered 501(c)
>>> non-profit organization simply don't fulfill the local regulation. As
>>> the one of the organizators of biggest FLOSS conference COSCUP[2] in
>>> Taiwan, I can understand what sponsors need for local regulation. We
>>> need a local organization to managed the resources and provide tax
>>> reduction benefit. This is the goal of the focus group.
>>>
>>> * What we need to do is to understand what's the best way to work as
>>> partner with SPI, maybe like ffis e.V in Germany or Associazione
>>> Software Libero in Italy. However, this will take time to study and sort
>>> out legal and tax issues.
>>>
>>> * The last thing, Andrew Lee please don't play political game with us.
>>> (by ignoring other's important decisions and opinions, and quote out of
>>> context in email to the public) Please don't ignore the
>>> requests and resolution of the team, which is based on the result of
>>> poll. You will make us have not choice to move on without you.
>>>
>>> 1.
http://www.debian.org/trademark
>>> 2.
http://coscup.org/2009/en/
>>>
>>> Best Regards
>>> -Rex
>>>
>>> Andrew Lee wrote on 08/25/2009 05:39 PM:
>>>> Dear All,
>>>>
>>>> I am glad to see more than 30 people who attended the Taiwan Debian
>>>> Meeting - Debian Birthday Party last weekend. We shared the special
>>>> Debian 5.0.2 Arch 'All' and had a lot of fun. It was a great meeting!!
>>>>
>>>> Please forward this message to these people. Someone must has their
>>>> contact information either email or phone, or even have both.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for all your feedback about the SPI issue thus far generated in
>>>> that DOT members email thread. I am grateful to many people’s input
>>>> especial the one from Rex.
>>>>
>>>> I would like to propose an IRC meeting to discuss an issue which has
>>>> been actively in discussions for a while, namely, does Taiwanese Debian
>>>> community need to have a global presence through opening its Doman name
>>>> to SPI (Software in the Public Interest)?
>>>>
>>> ... cut ...
>>>> >From the above list, we can see that Debian is a registered trademark of
>>>> Software in the Public Interest, Inc. Therefore, it is very natural for
>>>> SPI to manage Debian related Domain Names. SPI has been in charge of
>>>> Debian official domain names around the world.
>>>>
>>>> To have a SPI affiliated
Debian.Org.TW means that Taiwan will have an
>>>> official presence from the perspective of SPI’s view. The presence is
>>>> meaningful because so far attending Debian held international
>>>> conferences have been individual participation instead of representing
>>>> Taiwan as a whole.
>>>>
>>>> Taiwan also has specific rules about domain name ownership. Basically,
>>>> the .ORG domain name can’t be owned by any individual except the
>>>> ownership was in effect before the passing of the domain law.
>>>>
>>>> In short, the benefits of joining the SPI stream are the followings:
>>>> 1. Link with Debian main project officially
>>>> 2. To have an formal presence at SPI
>>>> 3. Taiwan can have its official signature when attending Debain
>>>> held international conferences.
>>>> 4. To be eligible for tax reduction benefit when making donations to
>>>> SPI and server bandwidth to DOT( if the DOT is individually owned, it
>>>> will limited its growth because the Debian community in Taiwan will have
>>>> difficulty to ask for help which only available to non-profit organizations)
>>>> 5. And also for future Debian syncproxy in Asia
>>>> 6. Further Debian related events such as
>>>> DebCamp/mini-DebConf/DebConf in Taiwan. :)
>>>>
>>>> Joerg Jaspert already created an IRC channel called #spi-tw on
oftc.net
>>>> for this. For all of your convenience, we hasn't decided the date and
>>>> time yet.
>>>>
>>>> Please recommend a reasonable time and a date for this.
>>>>
>>>> Kindly regards,
>>>>
>>>> -Andrew
>>>>
>>>> Joerg Jaspert wrote:
>>>>> Hello everyone,
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm sorry that my reply took this long, but DebConf didn't leave me much
>>>>> time to draft a proper reply, and then I was taking a weekend basically
>>>>> off.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now, as I don't know who of you knows me, let me shortly introduce
>>>>> myself. I am a Linux user since somewhere around 2000, a Debian
>>>>> Developer since 2002, SPI head admin since 2006 and a member of the SPI
>>>>> Board of Directors and SPIs Vice President since 2007.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> 6. Yesterday, he sent an email said SPI is willing to handle the domain
>>>>>>> name '
debian.org.tw' immediately. Which is totally different as what he
>>>>>>> told me, and we are surprised by this information. This message to me
>>>>>>> looks like no matter what the others vote, he will work with Debian
>>>>>>> folks by transfer the domain name and other resources to SPI.
>>>>> Lets take some heat out of the discussion: SPI will not act on anything
>>>>> if there is no clear consensus on what should be done.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Andrew, could you please provide a more detailed overview of what would
>>>>>>>> change if we go the way you proposed?
>>>>>>>> What would happen
>>>>>>>> * to the servers (hardware)?
>>>>>>>> * administration rights and access to the servers?
>>>>>>>> * to eventual policies or procedures for DOT members?
>>>>>>>> * on the legal side (who is going to set up a legal entity and how?)?
>>>>>>>> * to change on the community side?
>>>>>>>> * to the decision making process?
>>>>> To all of the above the answer is: Nothing and everything. :)
>>>>>
>>>>> It is not SPIs goal to take over administration of servers of member
>>>>> projects. We can do so if we get asked, but we prefer not to.
>>>>> Nor do we want to rule those projects, in whatever way. We also don't
>>>>> take decisions for our member projects. We may aid you to find a good
>>>>> decision if you ask, but we are SPI, not $PROJECT, we are not the people
>>>>> to decide for $PROJECT.
>>>>>
>>>>> The goal and usual working mode of SPI is a different one. We do support our
>>>>> member projects in the way they want and need support. And we provide a
>>>>> clean interface between SPI and the project over which our actions can
>>>>> be controlled/started. (In case of Debian that is the DPL, other projects
>>>>> nominate liaisons that interact with us).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Now, I honestly have about *no* knowledge of laws in your country and
>>>>> also don't know the rules attached to .
org.tw domains and who might own
>>>>> them. There is certainly lots we have to discuss before we can decide if
>>>>> DOT wants to join SPI, or if there should be an own legal entity in your
>>>>> country doing something similar than SPI *or* if you simply go on like
>>>>> you did in the past.
>>>>> The only thing I want to advice against is having project owned assets
>>>>> assigned to an individual, like the
debian.org.tw currently is. After
>>>>> all this means a single person has to lose interest and go MIA, and you
>>>>> are in trouble. Even worse if that person is on the bad side of an
>>>>> accident...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *Assuming* you would join SPI (and all the legal stuff is ok with it),
>>>>> SPI would *offer* to take over the .
debian.org.tw domain and manage it in
>>>>> behalf of DOT. Which could be fully managing it (like we do with
>>>>>
emdebian.org) or simply pointing the NS entries to machines DOT controls
>>>>> (like we do with
debian.org, where we own the Domain but Debian admins
>>>>> do the work).
>>>>>
>>>>> The same motto ("we do what the projects want, as long as it fits SPIs
>>>>> goals and is legal") holds true for other assets we manage for our
>>>>> projects. Which, besides Domain names and trademark holding, is handling
>>>>> money and giving legal advice.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now, as SPI is US-based (I'm german, but the organisation is officially
>>>>> placed in New York), this might not be something DOT needs. We
>>>>> definitely have to find this out.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Actually, the most active service is the forum (
moto.debian.org.tw)
>>>>>>> and the wiki. I only care do we are still free to manage the server and
>>>>>>> develop any service.
>>>>> Assuming you would join SPI: You wouldn't give up anything you have
>>>>> now, *except* that you should not work against SPIs goals. So as long as
>>>>> you don't, like, start advocating non-free and closed systems, you would
>>>>> be all well.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>