Re: Hello and introduction
On Thu, 2 Mar 2006 07:13:57 +0100
Christian Perrier <bubulle@debian.org> wrote:
> > > but for me it had more to do with not feeling "polite" enough and
> > > being accused of being too hostile/aggressive.
> >
> > Stronger emphasis on communication via subtext and innuendo, a focus
> > on superficial harmony instead of honesty and discussion (this may
> > be what you experienced), commonly a reluctance to try activities
> > seen as "guys' stuff", e.g. be "too geeky", or at least to get "too
> > involved" in them despite what may be a strong interest. Those are
> > the ones I can think of right now.
>
> All the above can certainly be defined as social behaviour that are
> traditionnally known as "female", sure.
>
> I'm personnally still in the mood that this is however what women
> bring in a male-dominated environment (just like is mine, in my
> professionnal activities). So, even though relying only on a social
> behaviour putting emphasis on communication and (supposedly)
> superficial harmony is not enough to have a good environment, they are
> part of it.
>
> In deep technical environments (such as Debian....and my own
> prof. environment), being able to listen to others, understand them
> and apply the traditional and very well known concepts of good social
> interaction (reformulation, putting self in the skin of others, etc.)
> is what makes good work relations.
>
> Technical excellence without social skills is (exxagerating just a
> little) completely useless.
>
> And, this may sound a little bit traditionally minded, but I
> personnally think, from my own experience, that this is what women
> are, statistically speaking, more able to bring than men. Don't ask me
> why....maybe some social formatting or whatever. This is also what
> could be defined as "man-ish" or "woman-ish" behaviour....feel free to
> call me a jerk if disagreeing.
>
As long as you _don't require_ a woman to have those good qualities...
> > That doesn't mean I like most male-dominated environments either,
> > since they certainly have their share of problems, but they tend to
> > at least be more direct and thus easier to parse, and I'm not
> > expected to like them, so there was no exception to mention.
>
> Being more direct may be a quality but is also often a defect
> (default?) when used too strongly....maybe just look some Debian (or
> non Debian) mailing lists.
>
> As an example, let's imagine two people disagreeing on a given topic,
> say the GFDL being DFSG-compliant or not...
>
> If the one being "not OK with GFDL" just says the other one: "you are
> wrong. The GFDL is *this* and *that*"...this is, IMHO,
> miscommunication.
>
> This is pushing your own opinion without any effort to listen to the
> other's opinion.
>
> Another way, more social-friendly, to say the exact same thing would
> be: "I understand you think "foo" (pro DFSG compliance argument) which
> makes you conclude that GFDL is DFSG-compliant. My personal
> interpreation of this is that "foo" is debatable because of "bar" (con
> DFSG compliance argument)".
>
> This is showing that you have listened to the others opinion, are able
> to rephrase it...and explain why you have a different opinion.
>
> The first behaviour is, imho, more common in technical
> environments. The last one is probably more common in human relations
> and "social" environments.
>
>
> Being able to use the socially acceptable behaviour in a technical
> environment is a quality that is very widely searched for. In short,
> finding technically excellent people is not that difficult. Finding
> technically excellent people that can socially behave properly is way
> more difficult and, again, from my own experience, the percentage of
> women in the second category is higher..:-)
>
> I completely assume and have already explained that this is what I
> think more women can bring to Debian. Not only, for sure...and there
> is still room for people (women or men) who don't have these qualities
> or don't care about them.
>
> > For one thing, it's focused on getting things done, whether they're
> > technical or cultural. It also has no social tax, as far as I can
> > tell. One can choose to be actively social, but there are no
> > unsolicited attempts to 'include' or 'engage' people, that I've
> > seen.
>
> In this, DW is typically Debian-ish, which is actually what made its
> success, imho, and the strong recognition of the project among
> existing Debian people.
>
> This is certainly what we deeply owe to the initiators of the
> project....and actually perfectly fits my "social skills required"
> paragraphs above..:)
>
> > Also, Debian in general is a truly international community, so the
> > (civilised) parts of it seems not to make as many assumptions about
> > shared culture as a smaller or less diverse one would.
>
>
> This is certainly something that I've learned from i18n activities as
> well and, indeed, this is something that DW and i18n deeply share.
>
>
> .... Ouch, I spent half of my morning mail-reading slot writing all
> this....hope that someone will go down to the end...:)
>
>
>
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>
--
Odile Bénassy
http://obenassy.free.fr
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