Re: Please be respectful
On 10/24/2020 3:11 PM, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
Leslie,
You clearly have a great deal to say about your personal morals and ethics
Not really, no. Certainly not by comparison to the volume of my daily
work. "A great deal to say" would encompass volumes. I tyed a fe lines.
and you do not regard yourself as anybody's fool.
Hmm. I am an engineer, which means I am a professional idiot. Whether
I am a fool or not, I really don't know. That is for others to say.
"Never argue with a fool on the Internet - after a couple of rounds, a dispassionate observer will not be able to tell who's who"
Perhaps. I have been doing this a very long time; far, far longer than
there has been an internet, or a public one, anyway. Except when I am
wrong - which happens often enough - I have rarely lost a debate in any
online forum. Whether that is a good or bad thing, I don't know.
Your responses in this and other threads are neither necessarily constructive
When I give my professional advice, I submit they are always
constructive. When I offer a personal opinion outside my expertise as
an engineer, I see no reason why the post should be construed as
constructive or otherwise. They are simply accurate to the best of my
ability to make them. An opinion is an opinion. "Constructive" is not
an adjective that applies in any meaningful way. I will offer and
defend my opinions - nothing more or less.
nor helping other people to appreciate you more widely.
Why would I wish to be appreciated at all, let alone widely? I assure
you I have absolutely no desire to win a popularity contest. I despise
those who seek adulation, and I am not looking for praise. If something
I say is helpful, then fine. I don't mind, but I don't want anyone to
think they should be grateful. I speak the truth as my experience has
led me to surmise it to be irrespective of how I might be perceived.
I would respectfully suggest that you could profitably go back and read the list archives to find examples of good and useful
In the more than 40 years I have been communicating in fora similar to
this I have seen just about every communication style imaginable. It
would be an absolute deception for me to try to adopt a style - probably
one abhorrent to me - merely to achieve some end in which I have no
interest in the first place. That is not to say my communication style
is any better than anyone else's, but it is mine, and I am not about to
steal, as it were, someone else's. What it would profit me totally
escapes me.
communication styles that will allow you to bring your expertise to bear more usefully to every reader's benefit.
If someone wants me to be useful, they need to pay me. That is what I
do for a living. This thread is not about anyone's expertise or bring
useful. It is about opinions concerning being polite.
The Debian mailing list code of conduct (see below) is here to try and bring some of these things more clearly to people's attention
I have to call BS on this. No matter the putative intent, rules are
almost universally created as a means of making the rule maker(s) feel
important or empowered. Even in the very few cases where this is not
true, virtually no rules ever succeed in producing the stated intent.
Control of that nature is an illusion. Very, very few people understand
enough about natural processes to produce effective rulesets where
intelligence and creativity are involved. It is difficult enough with
computers.
The Debian Code of Conduct (see below) is more wide ranging and applies to any and all Debian assets. In many ways, it's based on
getting the best out of how we work:
Then why is it Debian continues to go down the figurative toilet? It
used to be moderately decent. Year after year after year the best
attributes of the distro have been tossed in the garbage so that now it
is a pile of ridiculous junk. Actually, it is in great measure because
of those rules it is now almost junk. Fifteen years ago, it was a
half-way decent product. I did not have to search too long to find
quite a few decent features of the distro. Now I am hard pressed to
find a single one that was not better in previous releases.
I respectfully suggest the Debian rules be trashed in their entirety,
eliminate the bunch of egos driving the projects, and get some people
who don't care about their own self-importance. The rules are not
working. Rules almost never do. Point to innovation and excellence,
and I will show you a rule breaker.
we're aware of the sorts of issues that can cause problems or attitudes that can alienate
people and would not wish to perpetuate these.
Please quit worrying about alienating people. Quit worrying about
"feelings". This is an Operating System, not an episode of Mister
Roger's Neighborhood. Above all, please quit trying to be a popular OS.
Leave that to Windows or Ubuntu.
With thanks for your reading time,
All the very best, as ever,
I am truly sorry if you find this statement offensive, but I find the
statements above extremely disrespectful. It is very difficult to
discern tone in a medium such as this, but I am having an exceedingly
hard time taking this to be anything but condescending and
paternalistic, just as Debian has become. If anything at all is
disrespectful, a placating, patronizing attitude is.
Now let me pause to say if your intent is not to be placating and
patronizing, then I abjectly apologize. It may be you are trying to be
nice or non-confrontational, but that just does not play for me, either.
I am not impressed by "nice". I am impressed by intelligence,
toughness, and a drive for excellence. Just by the way, I am also not
impressed by insincere courtesy, although I judge yours to be sincere.
It also seems a bit obsequious to me, but it is very likely I am
mistaken, in which case I again apologize. If not, however, then please
quit trying to handle me. It is without question polite, but it is
highly disrespectful.
It is just the fact it reminds me so much of what Debian has become.
At every turn, it has implemented ridiculous restrictions in order to
prevent idiots from being hurt in the name of security. It starts at
the login screen, and gets worse from there. I have followed the fights
within the Debian development arena, and almost every time they have
been poorly resolved, considering far too much personal feelings and far
too little coding excellence.
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