Re: There is no choice
On 9/22/2014 6:22 AM, Ric Moore wrote:
> On 09/20/2014 10:11 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>> On 9/20/2014 9:51 PM, Don Armstrong wrote:
>>> On Sat, 20 Sep 2014, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>>> It seems the developers make the decisions and users feel left out.
>>>> What we want does not seem to matter.
>>>
>>> There are positive methods of influencing the decisions that Debian
>>> makes and negative methods.
>>>
>>> Positive methods include:
>>>
>>> 1) filing accurate bug reports
>>> 2) participating in technical discussions with specific use cases
>>> 3) running tests
>>> 4) contributing documentation
>>> 5) clarifying the technical ramifications
>>>
>>> and a whole host of other aspects too numerous to mention here. If
>>> anyone reading this is unsure of how they can contribute to Debian, feel
>>> free to contact me (or any other Debian volunteer, really) at any time.
>>>
>>> Negative methods include all kinds of personal attacks, maligning Debian
>>> in general, or continually posting the same arguments after decisions
>>> have been made without new information. These methods are not
>>> appropriate, and do not belong on Debian mailing lists.
>>>
>>
>> People are doing this just BECAUSE the feel the developers aren't
>> listening. They have tried the positive things, within their technical
>> and time limitations. And when they feel their positive contributions
>> are not being listened to, they start with the negative methods.
>>
>>>> Now maybe the users DO matter, and developers DO listen to us. If that
>>>> is the case, you need to communicate that fact better.
>>>
>>> I'm here, listening. Other DDs are to.
>>>
>>
>> That may be - I don't know, because I've seen so few contributions to
>> the discussions here. And I'm sure others feel that way also, which is
>> why the complaints.
>
> Maybe between having to have real life paying gig, Debian devel, and
> most likely family obligations, they don't have time left to hang here
> and address each individual beef.
>
Lack of communications leads to misunderstandings and the feeling people
don't care. That is exactly what is going on here.
>> Then please explain to us why, with all of the negative technical
>> aspects surrounding systemd, it looks to be the default init in Jessie.
>
> It's just the way they went to go. I have had zero problems with it, as
> a mere user. I did my part by installing Jessie fresh, so I wouldn't be
> part of the noisy problems on this list with left over old cruft
> competing for attention. My reward was a very well running install, that
> apparently was well crafted by some very talented people.
>
"Because I said so" never was, and never will be a good response to a
technical problem.
> It all just works. Since I paid nothing, I certainly got much more than
> my money's worth. I fail to see where we should jerk on their chains to
> demand more of their time by hanging here as well, like we have some
> right to demand any thing. That just comes off as presumptuous.
>
I'm glad it works FOR YOU. It doesn't for everyone. And all people are
asking for are technical responses to technical issues - instead of just
closing bugs "won't fix".
> Keep in mind they have the freedom to walk off this non-paying gig and
> to tell us all to go pound sand.
>
>
Sure. And we are free to walk off, also. Many of us are. But before
we do, we're trying to keep a good distro from going to the pits -
because we care about it.
Jerry
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