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Re: multiarch - please do not force users to change a running system!

Hi Hans,

Am Samstag, 8. Dezember 2012 schrieb Hans-J. Ullrich:
> Maybe I described my problem not exactly enough. My English might be better.
> Let me try again.
> 
> 1. I have a running amd64 system, which is running 32-bit applications 
> perfectly (due to ia32-libs)
> 
> 2. aptitude upgrade wants to deinstall ia32-libs, as there are dependencies in 
> i386 repo (ia32-libs:386). According to this, it wants also deinstall my 32-
> bit applications (i.e. skype or googleearth)
> 
> Now I have two choices
> 
> 1. I can add i386 to the sources list. This will keep and update ia32-libs and 
> keep my 32-bit apps - but it will install al lot of new (unnecessary) libs, 
> which I do not need and I do not want to install. It is sure, I do not need 
> them, as the 32-bit applications are running perfectly as described above.
> 
> I do not want to fill my system, with unnecessary libs (keep it simple stupid)

You did not understand it? Did you?


martin@merkaba:~> apt-cache show ia32-libs
Package: ia32-libs
Version: 1:0.4
Installed-Size: 111
Maintainer: Debian ia32-libs Team <pkg-ia32-libs-maintainers@lists.alioth.debian.org>
Architecture: amd64
Depends: ia32-libs-i386
Pre-Depends: multiarch-support
Suggests: ia32-libs-gtk
Description-en: Transitional package to migrate ia32-libs to multiarch
 This is a transitional package used to migrate the ia32-libs package
 to true multiarch. It can be removed once nothing on the system
 depends on it.
 .
 This package requires multiarch to be enabled before it can be
 installed, use "dpkg --add-architecture i386".
Description-md5: 9587670bdeedaa0cce2b9523b75ee376
Tag: role::shared-lib
Section: oldlibs
Priority: optional
Filename: pool/main/i/ia32-libs/ia32-libs_0.4_amd64.deb
Size: 114232
MD5sum: 54275d3503faae1b697880f5ae860a82
SHA1: 1bb07c1a9958cb6edd2a5c0bfd5b535082d9361a
SHA256: ce6cd0356aa7b166b3b1765f97c3fa6ee188c04cdddae50e5733f043a55da746

martin@merkaba:~> apt-cache show ia32-libs-i386
Package: ia32-libs-i386
Source: ia32-libs
Version: 1:0.4
Installed-Size: 111
Maintainer: Debian ia32-libs Team <pkg-ia32-libs-maintainers@lists.alioth.debian.org>
Architecture: i386
Depends: freeglut3 (>= 2.6.0-1), lesstif2 (>= 1:0.95.2-1), libacl1 (>= 2.2.49-4), libaio1 (>= 0.3.107-7), libasyncns0 (>= 0.3-1.1), libattr1 (>= 1:2.4.44-2), libaudio2 (>= 1.9.2-4), libaudiofile1 (>= 0.2.6-8), libavahi-client3 (>= 0.6.27-2+squeeze1), libavahi-common3 (>= 0.6.27-2+squeeze1), libbsd0 (>= 0.2.0-1), libcap2 (>= 1:2.19-3), libcomerr2 (>= 1.41.12-4stable1), libcups2 (>= 1.4.4-7+squeeze1), libcurl3 (>= 7.21.0-2), libdbus-1-3 (>= 1.2.24-4+squeeze1), libdirectfb-1.2-9 (>= 1.2.10.0-4), libdrm-intel1 (>= 2.4.21-1~squeeze3), libdrm-radeon1 (>= 2.4.21-1~squeeze3), libdrm2 (>= 2.4.21-1~squeeze3), libedit2 (>= 2.11-20080614-2), libesd0 (>= 0.2.41-8), libexif12 (>= 0.6.19-1), libexpat1 (>= 2.0.1-7), libflac8 (>= 1.2.1-2+b1), libfltk1.1 (>= 1.1.10-2+b1), libfontconfig1 (>= 2.8.0-2.1), libfreetype6 (>= 2.4.2-2.1+squeeze3), libgcrypt11 (>= 1.4.5-2), libgdbm3 (>= 1.8.3-9), libgl1-mesa-dri (>= 7.7.1-5), libgl1-mesa-glx (>= 7.7.1-5), libglu1-mesa (>= 7.7.1-5), libgnutls26 (>= 2.8.6-1), libgpg-error0 (>= 1.6-1), libgphoto2-2 (>= 2.4.6-3), libgphoto2-port0 (>= 2.4.6-3), libgssapi-krb5-2 (>= 1.8.3+dfsg-4squeeze2), libice6 (>= 2:1.0.6-2), libidn11 (>= 1.15-2), libieee1284-3 (>= 0.2.11-6), libjack-jackd2-0 (>= 1.9.5~dfsg-14) | libjack0 (>= 1:0.118+svn3796-7), libjpeg62 (>= 6b1-1), libjpeg8 (>= 8b-1), libk5crypto3 (>= 1.8.3+dfsg-4squeeze2), libkeyutils1 (>= 1.4-1), libkrb5-3 (>= 1.8.3+dfsg-4squeeze2), libkrb5support0 (>= 1.8.3+dfsg-4squeeze2), liblcms1 (>= 1.18.dfsg-1.2+b3), libltdl7 (>= 2.2.6b-2), liblzo2-2 (>= 2.03-2), libmpg123-0 (>= 1.12.1-3), libnspr4-0d (>= 4.8.6-1), libnss3-1d (>= 3.12.8-1+squeeze4), libogg0 (>= 1.2.0~dfsg-1), libopenal1 (>= 1:1.12.854-2), libpam0g (>= 1.1.1-6.1+squeeze1), libpng12-0 (>= 1.2.44-1+squeeze1), libpopt0 (>= 1.16-1), libpulse0 (>= 0.9.21-3+squeeze1), libsamplerate0 (>= 0.1.7-3), libsane (>= 1.0.21-9), libsasl2-2 (>= 2.1.23.dfsg1-7), libsdl1.2debian (>= 1.2.15), libselinux1 (>= 2.0.96-1), libsigc++-2.0-0c2a (>= 2.2.4.2-1), libsm6 (>= 2:1.1.1-1), libsndfile1 (>= 1.0.21-3+squeeze1), libsqlite3-0 (>= 3.7.3-1), libssh2-1 (>= 1.2.6-1), libssl1.0.0 (>= 1), libstdc++5 (>= 1:3.3.6-20), libsvga1 (>= 1:1.4.3-29), libsysfs2 (>= 2.1.0+repack-1), libtasn1-3 (>= 2.7-1), libtdb1 (>= 1.2.1-2+b1), libtiff4 (>= 3.9.4-5+squeeze3), libts-0.0-0 (>= 1.0-7), libusb-0.1-4 (>= 2:0.1.12-16), libuuid1 (>= 2.17.2-9), libvorbis0a (>= 1.3.1-1), libvorbisenc2 (>= 1.3.1-1), libvorbisfile3 (>= 1.3.1-1), libwrap0 (>= 7.6.q-19), libx11-6 (>= 2:1.3.3-4), libx86-1 (>= 1.1+ds1-6), libxau6 (>= 1:1.0.6-1), libxaw7 (>= 2:1.0.7-1), libxcb-render-util0 (>= 0.3.6-1), libxcb-render0 (>= 1.6-1), libxcb1 (>= 1.6-1), libxcomposite1 (>= 1:0.4.2-1), libxcursor1 (>= 1:1.1.10-2), libxdamage1 (>= 1:1.1.3-1), libxdmcp6 (>= 1:1.0.3-2), libxext6 (>= 2:1.1.2-1), libxfixes3 (>= 1:4.0.5-1), libxft2 (>= 2.1.14-2), libxi6 (>= 2:1.3-6), libxinerama1 (>= 2:1.1-3), libxml2 (>= 2.7.8.dfsg-2+squeeze1), libxmu6 (>= 2:1.0.5-2), libxmuu1 (>= 2:1.0.5-2), libxp6 (>= 1:1.0.0.xsf1-2), libxpm4 (>= 1:3.5.8-1), libxrandr2 (>= 2:1.3.0-3), libxrender1 (>= 1:0.9.6-1), libxslt1.1 (>= 1.1.26-6), libxss1 (>= 1:1.2.0-2), libxt6 (>= 1:1.0.7-1), libxtst6 (>= 2:1.1.0-3), libxv1 (>= 2:1.0.5-1), libxxf86vm1 (>= 1:1.1.0-2), odbcinst1debian2 (>= 2.2.14p2-1), libodbc1, xaw3dg (>= 1.5+E-18)
Pre-Depends: multiarch-support
Suggests: ia32-libs-gtk-i386
Breaks: libwine (<< 1.4-6), libwine-capi (<< 1.4~)
Description-en: Transitional package to migrate ia32-libs to multiarch
 This is a transitional package used to migrate the ia32-libs package
 to true multiarch. It can be removed once nothing on the system
 depends on it.
 .
 This package depends on all the individual library packages that were
 previously included in ia32-libs.
Multi-Arch: foreign
Description-md5: 321e0e4580bc52370af813420876fb23
Tag: uitoolkit::motif, uitoolkit::sdl
Section: oldlibs
Priority: extra
Filename: pool/main/i/ia32-libs/ia32-libs-i386_0.4_i386.deb
Size: 115088
MD5sum: c1636dae9cbe9bc90e832445a0f28e24
SHA1: 9c43706623eff17477bfe5145b2baabf1cda655f
SHA256: 2a0f3a2781245e5fd48b5e99c064f531d829feffd2a702afe2654992bc494fcb

martin@merkaba:~>


Thats where your 32-bit packages some from.

And no single 32-bit library is installed twice here.

Repeat: *No single*, in words that is zero, nada, zilch 32-bit library is
installed twice. Unless you happen to use old ia32-libs all in one package
with i386 multiarch 32-bit library packages together, but I bet that the
dependencies will make this impossible. (And if not, its only an interim
state.)



And until all 3rd party software use multiarch you will have to install
ia32-libs and possibly ia32-libs-gtk and thus have more 32-bit packages
that you may otherwise needed.

In fact, on my system the legacy ia32-libs packages are already gone:

martin@merkaba:~> dpkg -l | grep ia32-libs
martin@merkaba:~#1> 

And I enjoy some 32-bit applications:

martin@merkaba:~#130> dpkg -l | grep i386 | cut -c1-72 |  grep -v lib
ii  e-uae                                    0.8.29-WIP4-10             
ii  gcc-4.7-base:i386                        4.7.2-4                    
ii  skype                                    4.1.0.20-1                 
ii  uae                                      0.8.29-7 

With only

martin@merkaba:~> dpkg -l | grep "lib.*i386" | wc -l
117

32-bit library packages. Thats less than what ia32-libs contained in
one package and less than what the new multi arch ia32-libs packages will
pull in.



Its exactly that easy.


And no refusal to understand it, no outright denying of the benefits of
multi arch will make it go away.

So unless you show and convince Debian developer community that multi arch
is really a bad idea and they abandon it - which I find highly unlikely -,
you

1) either learn to understand it.

2) do not learn to understand it and just take it as granted (nothing
wrong with that, possible many users will choose that route)

3) stick with Debian Squeeze for as long as possible


We had it in debian-user-german to an almost unbearable extent. Please
read some of the recent threads there.

Thus please forgive me when this starts getting on my nerves.

I may better try to stay away from this thread from now on.


Constructively spoken something that explains multi arch in really easy
words might be good.

http://wiki.debian.org/Multiarch

http://wiki.debian.org/Multiarch/HOWTO

might be too complicated for beginners.

Ciao,
-- 
Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de
GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA  B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7
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