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Re: Debian, lists and discrimination

On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 09:49:35PM +1000, Matthew Palmer wrote:
On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 10:47:45AM +0200, J?r?me Marant wrote:
Selon Matthew Palmer <mpalmer@debian.org>:
> On Fri, Aug 06, 2004 at 10:29:40PM +0200, J?r?me Marant wrote:
> > Evidence. I would like to see evidence that Debian has not been giving
> > equal rights to males and women over the past years.
> The fact that our male / female participation ratio is much lower than even
> the gender split in IT, let alone the wider community should be enough.

It is fact, not evidence. You cannot conclude it comes from discrimination.

You can't conclude it doesn't, either.  We have several women on this list
who are saying that they want to get involved in Debian, but for various
reasons they don't feel comfortable doing so.

Why do you focus on the women who say that, but not on the even greater
number of men who don't make the grade to get into Debian?  Yes, Debian
discriminates.  Debian discriminates on the basis of technical ability,
and on social ability.  As a Debian Developer it is important to be able
to deal with all manner of users.  Based on the behavior of the
Debian-Women, I have a very real fear that they would ignore any bugs I
filed because I am a "White Christian Male".

What if women don't want to spend their spare time in computing

Do you *really* think that's the case?  I knew several women at University
who were quite keen to spend their leisure time in computing activities,
we've got several women on this list, and I can't think of any intrinsic
reason why women would not get involved in computing activities in their
spare time.  Can you?

The fact you can't think of any reasons only means you lack imagination.
Biologically, men and women are different.  Trends are analog, not
digital.  Yes, the occasional monkey can ride a bicycle, but that
doesn't prove that monkeys are as interested in riding bicycles as much
as humans are.

You *still* haven't come with evidence. For example, you could point us
to where in the NM process there is discrimination (of course, not about the
silly he/she wordings war).

There have been several places in which issues have been identified in the
NM process, by the people affected by it -- issues of not having any "feel"
for what really, actually goes on (hence Frank Lichtenheld's recent
description of his entry into Debian), and documentation which could be
clearer.  Is that a good enough start?

Those things are not specific to women.  Tell me again, why do we need a
Debian-WOMEN project, instead of a general Debian-Welcome project?


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