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more about Squeak license and how it might relate to Blackdown Java2 license.


I thought I had deleted this in disgust after I withdrew thie ITP 
(#98676), but I appear to have a copy in sent-mail (which I tend to 
archive forever) which I had forwarded to some of the upstream people I 
had been working with on the Squeak packaging.  This is the reply I got 
from Apple's legal dept when I asked for clarification on their 
license.  (the Steve that the email is addressed to is the person I was 
in contact with at Apple's European legal dept, Mr Stafford (Stephen) 
is me.)

Re: License of Squeak: Request for some clarifications.
 From: Volume Licensing Administrator <vlinfo@euro.apple.com>
 To: <bagpuss@debian.org>
Hi Stephen,

Please find below the reply from Apple Legal in the US;

-------------------------Email Text-------------------------------


We are not  in a position to re-license the Squeak software under a more
"free" license, as proposed by Mr. Stafford, as the fonts are from a

As for Clause 5 of the Squeak license, this is a pretty standard
indemnification clause that would require a licensee (the "You" in the
license), to indemnify Apple for any damages, liabilities, costs, etc.
resulting from third party claims against Apple that themselves arise 
out of
the use, distribution or modification of the Squeak software by the 
(and potentially its sublicensees).  So it does mean what Mr. Stafford 
assumed in his email, i.e. that as a licensee/redistributor of Squeak,
Debian, could be potentially liable to indemnify Apple for damages 
by Apple that arose as a result of
Debian's use, distribution or modification of Squeak.

I hope this clarifies Clause 5 for him.




Volume Licensing Administrator
2 Furzeground Way
Stockley Park East
UB11 1BB
United Kingdom

**** Copied Mail Ends ****

The Clause 5 from the Squeak license in question is:

5. Indemnification.  You agree to indemnify and hold Apple harmless
from any and all damages, liabilities, costs and expenses (including
but not limited to attorneys' fees and costs of suit) incurred by
Apple as a result of any claim, proceeding, and/or judgment to the
extent it arises out of or is connected in any manner with the
operation, use, distribution or modification of Modified Software, or
the combination of Apple Software or Modified Software with other
programs; provided that Apple notifies Licensee of any such claim or
proceeding in writing, tenders to Licensee the opportunity to defend
or settle such claim or proceeding at Licensee's expense, and
cooperates with Licensee in defending or settling such claim or

To me at least, this looks incredibly similar to the section I am 
questioning from the Sun license for Blackdown.  I personally believe 
that a risk of liability like this is not one which the Debian project 
is in a position to take.  If someone with more knowledge of the issues 
would like to tell me I am wrong and why then I am happy to withdraw my 
objection (and probably reITP Squeak :)

<insert standard IANAL disclaimer>

Stephen Stafford
finger bagpuss@debian.org to get gpg public key

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