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Re: [desktop] why kde and gnome's menu situation sucks

On Thu, Oct 24, 2002 at 06:11:01PM +0200, Marek Habersack wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 25, 2002 at 01:00:28AM +1000, Glenn McGrath scribbled:
> > On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 23:46:18 -0400
> > Luke Seubert <ls.maillist@verizon.net> wrote:
> > 
> > > I believe I understand your point.  Is the idea to use a label like "Web
> > > Browser", instead of a label like "Explorer", or a proper name like,
> > > "Galeon"?
> > 
> > all of a sudden 50 sourceforge projects change their name to editor(1),
> > editor(2)..... editor(50), Imagine the absolute disaster if this concept
> > was extended to the command line.
> That would be obviously ridiculous.

Exactly.  You get the brass ring.  So why is it not obviously ridiculous
in menus?

> > Being able to choose/identify one project over the other is of fundamental
> > importance.
> Sure, the name can be given in the parentheses as it was suggested elsewhere
> in this thread. Also, I feel that we tend to forget one thing - we're
> talking about a basic desktop for a newbie. What you described above is
> likely to happen on an advanced user's desktop - but such a user will have a
> way and enough knowledge to modify the settings so that they make sense for
> them. For example, it should be possible (apart from the Basic vs. Advanced
> menu thing) to switch between three or four modes of displaying the menu entries,
> 1. labels (Web Browser, Movie Player, Terminal Emulator)
> 2. labels with the project name (Web Browser [Galeon], Movie Player
>    [mplayer], Terminal Emulator [mlterm])
> 3. project name
> 4. long project name
> The task of Debian Desktop should be to make the above possible and provide
> a well-defined transition path from Newbie to Adanced User.
> > It will be much harder for newbies to get help if they cant even workout
> > the real name of the program they dont know how to use.
> I don't think so. Newbie should not have too much choice _by default_. 
> marek

But, newbies need to be able to communicate on the mailing lists,
jabber, IRC, or whatever other medium of choice and in bug reports.
How does [1] help them do so?

[2] is acceptible, athough I would personally rather see it promoted to
submenu if there are more than 3 to 5 items in the same category.

I am now going off on a tangent.  I fear this project!  Not because it
will dilute the quality or reputation of Debian; I think neither are

But, if it takes off, the debian desktop team is taking it on themselves
to pick winners and losers from the free software spectrum.  How will
these decisions be made?  How long will they persist, once in place?
How will politicking and lobbying be handled?  Most importantly, how 
will upstream "also-rans" react?

Socially, this could be very devisive.

I am not saying it is a bad idea.  I am saying that it will require
tact --  something for which the free software community, and the Debian 
community are not always known.

Jim Penny

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