Re: Time for some Clarity (KDE, Qt, Open Source...)
robert havoc pennington wrote:
>
> On Sun, 28 Jun 1998, Kevin Atkinson wrote:
> > [Qt/KDE license stuff]
> >
> We knew and know all that you say here. At least I did. This argument has
> happened a million times if you check DejaNews or search Slashdot.
>
> > The orignal reason I even brought the topic up is becuase I would like
> > to see Debain get more user friendly. In fact I wanted Debian to be
> > THE model for a complete user friendly system.
>
> People seem to think this requires KDE. It does not.
>
> See www.gnome.org - scheduled to be the recommended Debian desktop for
> ease-of-use. It's in CVS on cvs.debian.org right now.
>
> There are at least a couple big advantages to Gnome that open up lots of
> ease of use possibilities. The first is that the code is all open source.
> The second is that the libraries are in C.
>
> [Very Good arguments for GNOME clipped]
I have a REAL problem with people who thing C++ is evil. It is not.
C++ is a very powerful language and many many programs are beginning to
be written it in. Including linuxconf...
Well once GQt becomes stable would you then except KDE? I think that
GNOME and KDE
should work together rather than fight with each other.
>
> > An extremely easy to use install program that groups things not by
> > the particular program names but buy there functionality. For example
>
> I think it's planned to have "install packages" based on the intended
> purpose of the machine - web server, workstation, whatever. This will
> serve a similar purpose.
Similer but not what I had in mind. I want something more.
>
> > Once installed an extremely easy to configure system. Linuxconf
> > sounds good here. The system needs to be easy to use but powerful
> > enough to get the full functionality out of the programs. Ie, not just
> > some cheap configuration scripts/utilities.
>
> People are planning to use linuxconf I think - check the debian-devel
> archives. There is also a Gnome frontend to linuxconf.
>
> > A coherent documentation section. No more of this info, man, html,
> > plain text, etc documents files all over the place. The system will
> > orignise all documents in a logical fashion under one system. HTML
>
> Debian has a rather ambitious documentation indexing and organization
> plan. Gnome documentation is all written in DocBook for multiple formats,
> then made available online as HTML. Integrating the Debian and Gnome
> schemes may be a remaining challenge, but people are indeed working on
> the problem of documentation organization.
>
Glad to here that.
> The Gnome help browser (already written and working) presents a unified
> interface to info, man pages, HTML, text files, etc., so that all the
> documentation can be viewed from a single program.
>
> > A easy to set up X windows system. When setting up the display the
> > system will automatically get the appropriate server with out the need
> > of the user having to chose which one.
>
> All the user has to do is refer to their computer's documentation and tell
> xf86config what kind of card they have. As I understand it this is
> basically the best that can be done, due to hardware limitations, without
> limiting users to cruddy 640x480 standard VGA modes.
But xf86config has some problems. Users should only have to identify
there card and have it read from its database for everthing else, same
with the moniter. This means that once the user enters in the card it
should get the approperse server it needs.
>
> Users who can't manage this (and it's not that hard) can buy a machine
> with Linux preinstalled.
>
> > Once set up the X desktop should be so nice that users will never
> > want to go back to the Windows 95/98 again! KDE sounds really good
> > here.
>
> Gnome will be just as good; though both have a solid couple of years
> before they're Windows killers for the average user.
>
> > However unlike some other distrubation the OS should not have to use
> > X to get the full functionally of the distrubtion. This way it can be
> > easially used where the primary point of the machine is a server.
> >
>
> Already true.
I know that.
>
> > Now does Debian have the same goals?
> >
>
> Debian as far as I know has no official goals relating to most of this.
> It's more a matter of individual volunteers putting in the time and effort
> to implement it, or not.
Yes but some poeople like be have some fundemental diffrences.
>
> Historically, Debian has favored stability and the Right Way over getting
> things out quickly. This may mean that EZ Debian will be a few months
> behind EZ Red Hat. Nonetheless, I'm fairly confident that it will happen,
> and due to Apt and some other Debian features I expect the Debian result
> to be nicer.
>
> > If not I might just consider creating a distribution of Debian that
> > has these things.
>
> Just volunteer to work on some of the relevant projects. You will not be
> able to put ease of use ahead of stability and open source, but this
> should not make any difference if you think in terms of a year or two from
> now rather than next week, because there will not be any conflict.
>
But in two are three years a lot of things can change.. Who knows what
will happen.
> It's important to think about the overall state of the system, and the
> long term implications of technical and licensing decisions. KDE is
> tempting today, but really not worth the long-term cost.
Why not. Once a GQt comes out then it can be used with debain. That is
where I have a problem. KDE is a great system that is available now! It
will become fully GPL is due time.
Just like the wine project which I fell will never get any where because
it aims to emulate windows which is constantly changing, to fast for
them to keep up...
>
> What if Minix had been a good enough short-term solution for Linus 6 years
> ago? I'm pretty sure it's only been six years. Look where Linux is now.
> But Minix was a far better system when he started, since Linux didn't do
> anything but print letters on the screen. Fortunately, Linux was open
> source, so it could grow and prosper; where is Minix today?
I believe in the free software model just not quite the same as yours.
And certainly not as the only solution.
What I don't like the 101 distributions out there that distribute
linux. I would like to see one coherend system that is easy to use but
still has all the power that unix has.
I really think that GMONE and KDE should put there diffrences aside and
work together.
I would also wish Debian and KDE should put there diffrences aside and
work together.
Right now the KDE desktop is really really nice now (but still needs
work) and it offers an almost complete X desktop solution. Gmone does
not ket. KDE should really work to support GMONE applications and GMONE
and Debian should except KDE with the knolage that it will eventually be
trully free.
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