Frans Pop wrote:
> OK, but in your proposal the option to scan additional CDs is _not asked at
> all_ if they choose to use a mirror. A significant difference I'd say.
Asking the CD question in expert mode if a mirror has been configured is
not significantly different than allowing lilo to be chosen after grub in
expert mode, is it?
> I also still feel that having to say "no" to a mirror is in any way logical
> if you want to use additional CDs, so we'd have to add some sort of ugly
> (conditional!) explanation in the use mirror dialog about that.
I guess you mean *not* in any way logical.
It seems logical to me; the installer wants to find as complete as
possible a copy of the debian archive and doesn't really need to
continue to find other copies once one has been found. Same reason it
doesn't ask for CDs after you've given it DVDs..
> I also think that a lot more users would like to be able to scan additional
> CDs than you think. Not everybody in the world has broadband.
I think that I have a fairly good understanding of the diversity of
internet connections out there, having spanned dialup, cable, dsl, isdn,
t3 or better, the neighborhood coffee shop, third world networks, and
satellite in a non-linear progression over the past 13 years. :-P
(I upgraded a Debian system behind dialup just last weekend. I
brought a DVD to do it with since 5 hour downloads are not fun.)
The thing is, if you're on dialup, or on a satellite connection that will
be FAPped[2] by a large download, or in a Honduran computer lab with 90%
packet loss to anywhere[1], you just *don't* use network installs and
mirrors. You make the mistake of using a mirror for an install perhaps
once, and then know exactly how painful that is (especially since
apt-setup doesn't allow progress bars to be canceled), and avoid it.
So, it's not really problimatic if the installer asks about using a
mirror before it lets you load your CD set, because you know that's not
the right choice for your situation and can quickly move on to the right
choice.
> I know your aversion against the full CD sets. I remember your blog about
> it. But I don't think scanning additional CDs if you already have them is
> in any way harmful.
I'm not adverse to CDs sets, I'm adverse to them being unnecessarily
produced and used. The inverse scenario to the dialup scenario above is
someone in a first world city who orders a 20 CD set because that's what
the average CD vendor sells, and its price is no worse than cab fare.
This user will at some point realise he's been had. Typically this
happens now when he realises that hey, he installed a fully working
Debian system and the only CD he ever used was #1. That seems somehow
better than slowly feeding in all 20 CDs only to be informed at the end
that you can choose to use a mirror instead.
> I agree that downloading/buying/scanning a full set of CDs is silly in
> almost all cases. However, if you want to do something about that it should
> be done where users decide to *buy or download* the images: on the website
> and in documentation.
Unfortunatly, it seems that as long as Debian makes huge CD sets
available for download, they will be what vendors try to sell to users.
After all, a vendor can make a lot more money by selling more plastic.
I've mailed a few vendors and suggested they offer more useful single
CDs, but never heard back.
Summary of all offerings[4] of US CD vendors:
3+ DVD set 14
20+ CD set 9
multiarch DVD 2 [3]
multiarch CD 1 [3]
CD #1 only 0
KDE CD 1
Xfce CD 1
netinst CD 0
businesscard CD 0
CD #1-4 + KDE 1
It's quite difficult to find the more useful CDs, like multiarch discs,
single full CDs, and netinsts, while we're awash in 20 CD sets. This is
broken..
--
see shy jo
[1] Worst. Internet. Connection. Ever. Took me half a day just to ssh
out and get a glance at my inbox.
[2] If you don't know what this is, you're a very lucky person.
[3] The elusive multiarch CD/DVD is exclusively sold by
http://on-disk.com/index.php?manufacturers_id=43
and http://www.pctech101.com/products.php?cat=30
[4] Omitting vendors still selling sarge, one of whom had the sarge
netinst, one of whom offered just the first full CD, all the rest
had CD sets.
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