Re: gr_lenny vs gr_socialcontract
On Fri, Dec 19 2008, Anthony Towns wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 09:54:08AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
>> On Fri, Dec 19 2008, Anthony Towns wrote:
>> >> I tend to come down hard on the side of not compromising my
>> >> principles for temporary convenience or popularity (or, if you will,
>> >> market share).
>> >> To paraphrase: Those who give up essential freedoms for
>> >> temporary convenience and popularity deserve neither.
>> > And, uh, isn't that a bit needlessly argumentative? Marc's not trying to
>> > get anyone to give up essential freedoms, or give them up himself.
>> I did not mean this to be argumentative. A rhetorical flourish,
>> yes. The quote is from a US politicial, and the analogy between the
>> constitutions and bill of rights was amusing.
> Uh, surely it's obvious that following any example from a political arena
> is going to be much more argumentative than necessary?
Not to me, it isn't obvious. Ben Franklin was more than just a
run-of-the-mill joe politician, and a diplomat before standing for
public office; and the quote seemed quite apropos, from my view.
However, since offense is in the eye of the beholder, I'll
withdraw the amusing paraphrase.
>> But I do think that the DFSG represents the essential freedoms
>> for software, as defined by the Debian project. Shipping stuff that
>> violates the DFSG is indeed giving up essential freedoms, in my view.
> I consider being able to easily install Debian and get it running on
> whatever random hardware I buy an essential freedom, so I see most of
It is a convenience, not a freedom. There is a difference. And
yes, even now, the ability to install non-free firmware using the
Debian installer exists (since the user does not appear to care that
the firmware in question is not actually free), thanks to the d-i team
accepting a USB key with the firmware.
> this as people trying to take away my freedoms. Obviously, your
> mileage varies, but that doesn't make either of us popularity seeking
I am not sure I cater to the view that all opinions are always
correct. You have a right to an opinion, and I have a right to regard
that opinion as wrong. Now, I ought to be able to convey that without
sliding over into "needlessly argumentative" territory. As to it being
populist, I am not seeing that as provicative either; shifting to the
side of convenience over abstract freedoms is a populist move (most
people rarely exercise the freedoms that are granted to them by the
DFSG). I am not being argumentative here either -- I do think it is
so, and I think I can defend that view.
I still hold that shipping non-free components as part of the
Debian system, etc, etc, as above.
"He who flames improperly risks making an ash of himself!" Jeff Klumpp
Manoj Srivastava <email@example.com> <http://www.debian.org/~srivasta/>
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