On Wed, Mar 10, 2004 at 09:34:26PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote:
> Ron <ron@debian.org> writes:
> > On Wed, Mar 10, 2004 at 05:29:22PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote:
> > > Despite all that Branden has ever done, Craig Sanders just unleashed a
> > > stream of unacceptable noise.
> > Sorry, you'll have to be more specific, all that he has ever done to
> > Craig, or all that he has ever done for the project?
> Whatever criticisms you may have of Branden's language and tone, it
> pales by comparison with Craig's, just unleashed on this mailing list,
> and you don't seem to have had anything to say about it.
Well, for example, Branden for a long time had the "How About A Nice Cup
Of Shut The Fuck Up" as the X Strike Force's official motto; and the old
XSF url now has the title "You like the cup. Drink from the cup." with
the image sans its description.
Historically, Branden's also written things like:
http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2001/debian-devel-200112/msg01933.html
http://lists.debian.org/debian-x/2001/debian-x-200110/msg00144.html
http://ned.ucam.org/~robot101/irc-quotes
(pipe the last one through head -5), which don't strike me as particularly
more polite than Craig's venting. It's probable Branden's changed since
he said those things; at the very least he's a lot more circumspect about
offending people as evidenced by the changes to the XSF's motto. I'm not
sure being circumspect about it isn't worse -- "Drink from the cup."
still seems to be telling people to shut up, but if anyone ends up
offended, they're likely to be ridiculed for reading too much into things,
and be forced to either live with the continued annoyance, or leave.
> This makes me think it isn't Branden's tone that bothers you.
> Nor, for that matter, has Branden used such a tone in recent memory,
> as far as I've seen.
Well, for instance after fixing an RC bug just yesterday he wrote on the
IRC development channel:
<Overfiend> 2 more tests to go
<Overfiend> xrender 0.8.3-7 passes the upgrade test
<Overfiend> xrender 0.8.3-7 passes the downgrade test
<Overfiend> yeah, suck my dick, fucking RC bug
I don't think it's remotely reasonable to think that this issue is the
fault of any particular individuals, and I don't think it's just a matter
of eliminating "fuck" from our vocabulary.
I also don't think we'll manage to get anywhere without some sort
of consensus on what sort of behaviour is okay and what isn't, and I
don't think we're likely to get any level of consensus if you, Craig,
Branden, myself, or anyone else who's come under strong criticism for
not being appropriately approachable or transparent try to set the
standards. I certainly can't imagine any consensus being achieved if
people aren't willing to make basic adjustments that they think are
unfair or unreasonable personally, but that don't really matter as far
as Debian's goals go, eg, say, not flirting with chicks involved with
Debian, not making issues personal, or not swearing.
But, again, I'm almost certainly not the one to be saying which of those
things Debian should allow, and which we should discourage.
Cheers,
aj
--
Anthony Towns <aj@humbug.org.au> <http://azure.humbug.org.au/~aj/>
I don't speak for anyone save myself. GPG signed mail preferred.
Linux.conf.au 2004 -- Because we could.
http://conf.linux.org.au/ -- Jan 12-17, 2004
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