Re: On the lets-remove-nonfree-proposal
Hamish> > 2. Introduce people to open source ideals.
Marcus> Debian was founded long before the Open Source movement hit the
Marek> I think Hamish referred to the idea of open source, not to the
Obviously. Marcus "accidentally" (?) overlooked the small caps. These
repeated "accidents" by the GR proponents are getting old real fast.
>> Personally, I value freedom over quality and convenience, and would hope
>> that Debian promotes it this way.
Marek> Marcus, I think that this statement expresses the feelings of all of
Marek> us here - no matter whether we are pro or contra the GR. But that is
Marek> not the point - these are our personal feelings _not_ related to the
Marek> project as a whole and, more, not related to the feelings of our
Marek> _users_. And, I think, that is the the starting point of the entire
Marek> flamewar (err.. discussion?) - that some of us try to promote their
Marek> own (our own) ideals/feeling without regard to what the _users_ as a
Marek> community need/demand/seek in Debian. What they want is a fully
Marek> functional OS with all the features found in the other OSes out
Marek> there. More, they turn to Debian because they seek quality and they
Marek> find it, they seek exellency and they find it, but as soon as they
Marek> are faced with the fact that Debian, as an OS, doesn't contain some
Marek> pieces of software because the software isn't free in the Debian
Marek> terms, they will turn to look somewhere else. This all have been
Marek> said before, therefore I'll just stop now... The bottom line for
Marek> today is that the free software has still some way ahead before it
Marek> can replace all the non-free software in a fully functional OS.
>> Free software is not necessarily of higher quality, there is a lot of
>> bad software around, free or proprietary. It is good to see that free
>> software can be of higher quality, but it is not a direct consequence.
Marek> I agree completely but, again, this is your, mine, our personal view
Marek> - not necessarily (and probably, in many cases, _not_) of our
Marek> users. As Hamish put it in his mail - we want to educate users about
Marek> free software and its ideals - therefore we must attract the users
Marek> and not push them away by _not providing them with the software they
Marek> need_. Before somebody gets in and states that I'm promoting
Marek> non-free software - I just recognize the fact that not all non-free
Marek> software has its free, fully functional and equally good free
Marek> counterparts. IMO this very fact is a reason to work more and harder
Marek> on providing the missing free equivalents...
>> > However, I think this GR compromises #2. [...] > We lose our
>> opportunity > to show them the benefits of open source (goal #2).
>> I think that the benefits of free software is that it is free,
Marek> That's an ideological and valuable benefit but without a direct
Marek> benefit for an end user...
>> not that it allows to run netscape on it or any other technical
>> argument. We currently don't take our opportunity to show this to our
Marek> Oh, but we do! People who work on Mozilla do exactly that! As soon
Marek> as their product (or, say, galeon) is finished they will step
Marek> forward and say "There! Here's a _free_ equivalent of Netscape -
Marek> see? It has all the features of Netscape and even more, and is
Marek> free!". By doing that they will show that the free software _is_
Marek> better - and it will be clear for everyone. That's what should be
Marek> done - demonstrating the superiority of free software by facts, not
Marek> by speeches, statements and impractical resolutions.
According to the latest figures, 43% of all statistics are totally worthless.