Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian]
On 10-08-2021 07:54, Andy Smith wrote:
> Hello,
>
> On Sun, Aug 08, 2021 at 05:01:50PM -0700, Weaver wrote:
>> On 09-08-2021 07:33, Andy Smith wrote:
>> > A lack of politeness isn't really debian-user's biggest problem. I
>> > think debian-user's biggest problem is the lack of restraint
>> > prolific posters have on posting every thought that comes into their
>> > heads and debating such into the ground.
>>
>> We all have our perceptions.
>> This would appear to be an overly dramatic one.
>> `posting every thought that comes into their
>> > heads and debating such into the ground' - really?
>> If there's a problem requiring resolution, I think it might pay to be
>> more concise than that.
>
> I really don't want to get into calling out specific sub-threads
> that have been ridiculously off-topic recently, They are not hard to
> find; there's just so many of them.
That wasn't the point. I pointed out an over dramatisation of the
situation is not conducive to the sort of accurate pre-analytical stage
required in order to specify a problem in order to deal with it
accurately.
Your answer to that is to specify `ridiculously off-topic threads'.
> If you can't see this then I just have to assume that you don't find
> the current situation to be a problem, in which case I don't know
> how to convince you that there's a problem. It doesn't seem like me
> listing out sub-threads that have departed far from anything
> Debian-related would convince you, and would probably only serve to
> feel like an attack on individual posters.
There may be any number of threads that do not meet your parameters of
`Debian-related'.
That doesn't mean they have no relevant standing in the situation.
Is there to be a rigorous deletion of anything not Debian related
within each email?
Is there to be no polite, courteous format, simply because it's not
`Debian-related'?
Things can get just a little too rigid, on the way to creating a total
lack of community that nobody wants to be a part of.
> I understand that there's plenty of people who think the current
> situation is not a problem, but I think there's also people who do
> think there is some issue here. I'm one of them and I'm giving my
> opinion in a thread where it was specifically asked for.
And who isn't?
>> > That sort of thing is not really possible on a question-answer site
>> > as conciseness is rewarded in both question and answer.
>>
>> Not in the reality I inhabit.
>> I'm a member of a couple of stack overflow sites, and I have witnessed many a
>> humorous aside and any number of examples of downright rudeness.
>
> Absolutely, but it's discouraged by the format and what gets through
> tends to be moderated away so it's less prominent. This results in a
> better experience both for the question asker and later researchers
> who come across it.
No, the rudeness is jumped on by members of the community more than
`moderators'.
The format changes nothing.
Where you get a focal point of communication interaction, you wll always
have both positive and negative interaction, determining which is which
very much a thing of individual perception.
You might see one interjection as rude and unnecessary, while I might
see it as a required ingredient in placing a clown in their place.
You can't stop social interaction unless you are a member of the android
demographic.
> By contrast on a mailing list like this it's about who shouts
> loudest and most often,
For exaple, you might see that point as relevant, while I see it as a
prime example of prevarication in an attempt to achieve a personal,
preferred aim at the expense of the group.
> and that's even before the posts start
> appearing that are not even about Debian at all.
Debian is open source.
It's a product of community.
It's strength comes from that.
I should not like to see it stifled.
Many different kinds of personalities contribute to it, as well as the
accepted standards of any number of traditions and cultures.
If you think the situation is not good now, you should have been around
then.
The flame wars were devastating, and I can recall one senior developer
stating the list was unusable, at one stage, and he was right.
But then the issue got sorted and things got back to normal.
> There are good reasons why most times when I have a problem, a
> search engine expedition will usually lead me to answers on Stack
> Overflow-like sites before the archives of discussion lists.
Quite often that's the case, and so it should be.
Keeping resources to just one would have to be as much of a definition
of mental laziness as any other.
That should be happening before turning to the list for an answer from
another user.
>> There is also an extremely efficient means of weeding out those
>> conversations an individual sees as not necessary for their immediate
>> notice, or downright unnecessary, and ones they see as beng answerable -
>> within ther capability - and of interest. Personally, that takes me all
>> of 5 seconds.
>
> New users can't do this. Of course they can be taught but that is a
> huge impediment to getting their problems solved.
If they can't handle the most basic use of a mail agent, they can't do
anything.
Your overuse of adjectives doesn't supply your argument with much in the
way of credibility.
A _huge_ impediment, is it?
I was getting involved with open source before XP came out, with a
Debian based distro called Libranet.
I din't even know about mailing lists.
I battled away with cfdisc for ages over multiple install attempts, but
in the end, I learnt about partitioning, by myself.
> People coming by later to find answers also still have to sift
> through it all.
`have to sift through it all' and `They are not hard to
> find; there's just so many of them' - do make up your mind.
There's not much sifting involved.
A stress has always been placed on accurate, specific subject lines, and
I have never found it all that difficult to find relevant threads.
> It seems really odd to take the position that the primary venue for
> user support must be drowned in content that is not about use of
> Debian, because anyone who isn't interested in that can just filter
> it away.
No, it is not `drowned'.
That is another blatant misrepresentation.
>> > Off-topic discussion is specifically something which I suggest there
>> > is too much of here.
>>
>> It depends on what you see as `off-topic'. Your view is yours, and not
>> necessarily everybody's.
>> Do you see the value in discussion, yet?
>
> I get that everyone has different opinions about what this list is
> for. I think I'm being pretty clear in expressing the opinion that
> it is for user support, not general debate. It's not a problem when
> there's a slight amount of debate around the problems and solutions.
> It is a problem when threads shift entirely away from the use of
> Debian. Again, I really don't want to have to call out specific
> recent incidents as I think they're easy to recognise.
Yes, they generally have the addition of something ;like `Off-Topic' in
the header.
So, if they're easy to recognise, where's the problem?
> I'm not saying that I think such conversations shouldn't be had,
> anywhere, just that the primary place for support shouldn't be the
> place that they happen, and that I think this could best be achieved
> by not using a discussion list for it in the first place.
As far as I'm aware, ths is the point where the Debian community
interacts.
Yes, it's a primary place for support, as well.
> So no, I don't see the value of such wide-ranging discussion in the
> support venue, even having given a fair amount of it over a
> reasonably long period of time. There is nothing that has convinced
> me that diverging off into some topic not at all related to use of
> Debian has value here. I've done it myself, regretted it later, it's
> usually been a product of frustration and I wish it wasn't tolerated
> here from me or anyone else.
Because you can't see the value in it, doesn't mean the value isn't
there.
>> > It is perhaps not so bad for a general Debian community discussion
>> > group, where you would go into it thinking that pretty much anything
>> > goes, but the fact is that this is Debian's primary support venue
>> > for users new and old.
Are you referring to Deban-User, here, or some avant-garde anarchic
chaos club?
>> Something it has been doing very well at for some considerable time now.
>
> This sub-thread asking for suggestions on how to improve the list
> could have had a very short answer from you if your opinion on that
> is "nothing, it's all fine". Clearly not everyone considers it to be
> doing very well.
It could have been just as short if you had said something like: `I
don't agree'.
But neither response caters to full expression, does it?
Cheers!
Harry.
--
`Unthinking respect for authority is
the greatest enemy of truth'.
-- Albert Einstein
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