Re: Debian on Slow laptops. What setup is best?
On Sat, 25 Jun 2005 16:49:57 +0300
Micha Feigin <michf@post.tau.ac.il> wrote:
> On Sat, 25 Jun 2005 13:23:27 +0200
> Benedek Frank <linux@celifornia.com> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 21:05:26 +0300
> > Micha Feigin <michf@post.tau.ac.il> wrote:
> >
> > > On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:22:40 +0200
> > > Benedek Frank <linux@celifornia.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:54:12 -0600
> > > > Javier-Elias Vasquez-Vivas <jevv.cr@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Just keep in mind also fluxbox for your wm trials, its light
> > > > > and still have lots of nice features, its pretty configurable,
> > > > > and there are several styles available, someones havier than
> > > > > others. For remote connections I just use "Clean" style, and
> > > > > I don't attach aditional wallpaper and it's pretty light,
> > > > > actually lighter than fvwm in my experience...
> > > > >
> > >
> > > It probably depends on the setup, but could be. I tried it for a
> > > while but got caught with fvwm due to flexability, although it
> > > does take some time to set up to your taste as the configuration
> > > is in a text file and there are a LOT of options. Note that the
> > > default setup is VERY ugly and not representative. Look at the
> > > homepage for some screenshots that show what it can really do.
> > >
> > > I run a very minimalistic fvwm session (no background image, no
> > > panel, only menus simple title which I remove on maximization,
> > > which is applied to most windows to maximize desktop real estate.
> > > It take about 2.5 MB.
> > >
> > > > > Have fun,
> > > > >
> > > > > Javier.
> > > > Hi
> > > >
> > > > Okay, I will give it a shot. Can I ask a dumb question? What is
> > > > the difference between like KDE and Gnome and XFCE, which are
> > > > Desktops, and like fluxbox, blackbox etc that are Window
> > > > Managers? I am sure this is very basic, but I dont know it. When
> > > > I launch Enlightenment for example which is a Window Manager, I
> > > > get pretty much the same experience when I launch XFce, which
> > > > is a desktop. Can somebody enlighten me?
> > >
> > > Desktops are supposed to handle the whole desktop experience. That
> > > mainly involves having a folder manager integrated with the
> > > desktop. The will mean folders on the desktop (such as my
> > > documents in windows) and usually it allows to handle all the
> > > interface settings such as keyboard switching, so system settings
> > > etc.
> > >
> > > A window manager in theory only handles the windows, providing
> > > borders for dragging and resizing, titles and by definition thats
> > > it. Most allow for some sort of pannel, either built in or
> > > external and a pager.
> > >
> > > BTW you can add integrated folder manager on the desktop using
> > > rox-desktop (I am not sure if there is much more the rox-filer)
> > >
> > > personally I use X to handle keyboard switching and everything
> > > else I usually do directly, if its X startup related, through
> > > .xsession.
> > >
> > > To handle keyboard switching with X you need to set a line for you
> > > keyboard section in the x configuration file
> > > Option "XkbLayout" "us,il"
> > > and the to switch use something like
> > > Option "XkbOptions" "grp:shift_toggle,grp_led:scroll"
> > > which switches keymap by pressing both shift keys and lights the
> > > scroll lock light to indicate the second keymap. I think its also
> > > possible to use a third keymap this way, but not sure, and its
> > > always possible to switch from the command line using xmodmap
> > > (which you can always attach in your setup files to some keys)
> >
> > Hi
> >
> > I tried what you wrote, and it works like a charm, like you said,
> > except I cannot use it for my tasts for some reason. As you may
> > know, Japanese has weird characters, and when I put ja,hu in my
> > keymap like you did with (us,il), and I boot up, my Japanese one
> > writes characters that arent roman letters, but Japanese Katakana
> > letters . WHen I change to the other one, Hungarian, it works great.
> > I press the two shift keys, and the light comes up and all. Just the
> > default Japanese is messed up. When I have only the "ja" in my
> > keymap, then it comes up with Roman alphabet, just the layout is
> > Japanese, and I need that because my laptop has the Japanese
> > keyboard, with roman letters, but things like @ sign are in a
> > different place compare to US keymap, so I use the Japanese.
> >
> > So my question is, would you happen to know, that when I have only
> > "ja" defined, why it works, and when I have "ja,hu" defined, why the
> > Japanese starts to show Japanese characters instead of roman
> > characters?
> >
>
> Continuing from my previous email, another thing that may work instead
> is adding the line
>
> Option "XkbVariant" "latin,"
>
> to your keyboard section in the XF86Config-4 file
This did not work, but what you explained in your previous email,
copying the other file over, worked. Great. i will reply to the other
email as well. Thanks.
>
> BTW, if another email I sent on this thread got lost (I replied to a
> sent message) for light tabbed terminals try multi-aterm and
> mrxvt(-mini). They are very similar. multi-aterm has a bit nicer
> scrollbar that works with the scroll wheel and color icons, mrxvt
> looks exectly the same except for monochrome icons and athena (very
> simple) scrollbar. I tried mrxvt- mini and it seems very light (about
> 1.5M with one tab around 2M with 10). mrxvt seems more stable then
> multi-aterm and the tabs seems to behave better (size is more correct
> and the second tab in multi-aterm doesn't seem to appear correctly)
>
> I may just switch from screen as it saves a Meg and scrolls better.
I will give this a shot, thanks for the great tip.
Ben
>
> > Thanks
> >
> > Ben
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Thanks, and yes, I will give fluxbox a try.
> > > >
> > > > Ben
> > > > >
> > > > > On 6/23/05, Benedek Frank <linux@celifornia.com> wrote:
> > > > > > On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:57:01 +0300
> > > > > > Micha Feigin <michf@post.tau.ac.il> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 13:01:31 +0200
> > > > > > > Benedek Frank <linux@celifornia.com> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Wednesday 22 June 2005 11:36, you wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Wed, 22 Jun 2005, Benedek Frank wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > Hi. Can you check to see if I use something really
> > > > > > > > > > that I shouldnt use at all?
> > > > > > > [...]
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I have realized that. I blew it away already. I will set
> > > > > > > > up Sonypid which can enable Volume controlls to speial
> > > > > > > > keys, so I dont need kmix anymore. (I guess this is how
> > > > > > > > a newbie learns).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The volume keys on my laptop just produce regular key
> > > > > > > presses (depends on whether they are acpi buttons or not),
> > > > > > > sonypi doesn't find anything on this machine. What I did
> > > > > > > was to find the key-press symcodes using xev and then I
> > > > > > > setup Xmodmap to map them to keysyms which I later map in
> > > > > > > the fvwm setup file to use amixer and xosd to show the
> > > > > > > output
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There is a software called sonypid, and that is run as a
> > > > > > daemon, and can listen to all special keys, that otherwise
> > > > > > will not be listened to, unless using sonypid, at least with
> > > > > > my PCG-C1VRX/K. FOr me, also I need the sonypid, so that I
> > > > > > can use the "capture" button, to start camera, or to start
> > > > > > whatever I set it to start. Camera is pretty cool and
> > > > > > useless. (lol). I use it btw to start bluetooth, and so it
> > > > > > wont have to run all the time, just when I need it, so it
> > > > > > wont use memory. Very handy, specially I play with Nokia
> > > > > > Series 60 phones all the time, they have bluetooth support.
> > >
> > > I know about it, it just seem that my laptop lacks the sonypi
> > > extension. At least the kernel driver doesn't recognize anything.
> > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I have in ~/.Xmodmap:
> > > > > > > keycode 223 = XF86Standby
> > > > > > > keycode 160 = XF86AudioMute
> > > > > > > keycode 176 = XF86AudioRaiseVolume
> > > > > > > keycode 174 = XF86AudioLowerVolume
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And in my fvwm file (a bit complicated but not that much)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Key XF86AudioRaiseVolume A A Exec killall -9 osd_cat;
> > > > > > > amixer set PCM 100 unmute ; /usr/bin/amixer set Master 5%+
> > > > > > > unmute | sed -n "s/Front \(Left\|Right\): Playback .*
> > > > > > > \[\(.*\)\] \[.*\]/\1 \2/p" | osd_cat -d 2 -p middle -A
> > > > > > > center -l2 -i -30 -s 2 -S darkgreen -f
> > > > > > > "-*-arial-bold-r-*-*-80-*-*-*- *-*-*-*" -c lightgreen
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Key XF86AudioLowerVolume A A Exec killall -9 osd_cat;
> > > > > > > amixer set PCM 100 unmute ; /usr/bin/amixer set Master 5%-
> > > > > > > unmute | sed -n "s/Front \(Left\|Right \): Playback .*
> > > > > > > \[\(.*\)\] \[.*\]/\1 \2/ p" | osd_cat -d 2 -p middle -A
> > > > > > > center - l2 -i -30 -s 2 -S darkgreen -f "-*- arial-
> > > > > > > bold-r-*-*-80-*-*-*-*-*-*-*" -c lightgreen
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Key XF86AudioMute A A Exec killall -9 osd_cat; amixer set
> > > > > > > PCM 100 unmute ; if (amixer set Master toggle | grep -q
> > > > > > > '\[on\]'); then echo Un- Mute; else echo Mute; fi |
> > > > > > > osd_cat -d 2 -p middle -A center -l1 -s 2 -S gray10 - f
> > > > > > > "-*-arial- bold-r-*- *-100- *-*-*-*-*-*-*" -c lightgreen
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Key XF86Standby A A Exec /usr/bin/eject
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks for describing, I may use it. At least I can use the
> > > > > > commnads to increase or decrease volume, and plug them into
> > > > > > my script I have sonypid run when a button is presses.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Use xterm instead of gnome-terminal:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 1410 tconnors 15 0 4060 4060 2192 S 0.0 0.4
> > > > > > > > > 0:44 xterm
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Yes, a terminal emulator doesn't *need* 30m just to
> > > > > > > > > freaking run. Yikes!
> > > > > > > > Good call, I will look into getting a smaller terminal.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I use rxvt-unicode-lite since I want unicode but without
> > > > > > > the bells and wisles of the full compile. In my case I
> > > > > > > just use screen embeded in the terminal for multiple
> > > > > > > instances since the fvwm tabs extention was too heavy for
> > > > > > > me (it uses perl) and I didn't want to use kterm or
> > > > > > > gnome-whatever. Another option if you want several
> > > > > > > terminal windows and not just instances is to run the rxvt
> > > > > > > server on startup and then just startup clients, reduces
> > > > > > > the memory considerably for multiple terminals.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I use usually one, or maximum 2, rarely 3, for chekking real
> > > > > > time logs. One problem with xterm I realized, that I cannot
> > > > > > copy and past from it to the email. It is hard to
> > > > > > troubleshoot like that. Konsole and gnome-terminal allowed
> > > > > > me to do so. But the memory is a bigger problem, so I am
> > > > > > very happy after all.
> > >
> > > Its program dependent, but yes, sylpheed and emacs seem to have
> > > some problems with pasting from X for some reason.
> > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > As much as I hate pine (I'd hate kmail worse), it only
> > > > > > > > > needs:
> > > > > > > > > 5065 tconnors 15 0 3736 3736 2272 S 0.2 0.4
> > > > > > > > > 0:00 pine
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > All those other k* programs are just useless helper
> > > > > > > > > apps to kde. Blow kde away, and that'll free up a
> > > > > > > > > bit.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I have realized that. Actually, having the machine
> > > > > > > > rebootet, with KDM and KDE taken out of auto-start, I
> > > > > > > > got a much prettier picture, and a responsive system.
> > > > > > > > ALready half-success. When I dont start this kmail prog,
> > > > > > > > I have 140MB free mem. Yes, more than half of what I
> > > > > > > > have. Firefox eats up 20 or so. I still have 120 left.
> > > > > > > > At that point, I start Kmail, and slowly, about one
> > > > > > > > minute it starts, and I will have 20 MB left. So it eats
> > > > > > > > 100MB or RAM. That is weird. One weird program. It
> > > > > > > > starts all these programs with it
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > kmail 30MB
> > > > > > > > knotify 14MB
> > > > > > > > kded 11MB
> > > > > > > > kio_pop3 (as many times as many POP3 accounts I
> > > > > > > > have-each uses 10MB) klauncher 10MB
> > > > > > > > kdeinit 9.5MB
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > This is unacceptable. I am looking for a NEW email
> > > > > > > > client. I like a GUI email client, that has features
> > > > > > > > such as putting emails to the folders I want them to go
> > > > > > > > (filtering) and has support for more than one POP
> > > > > > > > account. Any takers on this? Will pine do this for me?
> > > > > > > > Can it use the maildir format?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I am using sylpheed-claws-gtk2 since I want the RTL
> > > > > > > support for hebrew (gtk has unicode support properly built
> > > > > > > in). It has a few quirks but was the best I found for my
> > > > > > > tastes. If you don't need RTL sylpheed-claws seems more
> > > > > > > stable and faster and has better support for maildir
> > > > > > > (actually sylpheed-claws-gtk2 doesn't have any support for
> > > > > > > maildir but depending on version mismatches it sometimes
> > > > > > > works with the sylpheed-claws maildir pluging).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yes, I have slypheed now myself too, but I didnt go for the
> > > > > > -claws version, as "apt-cache search sylpheed" showed the
> > > > > > -clwas version as the "bleeding edge email client", so I
> > > > > > went for the regular "sylpheed". It seems a bit old school,
> > > > > > but I like it already more than kmail, first it starts fast,
> > > > > > second VERY IMPORTANT for me, it allows me to set the amount
> > > > > > of days it will delete the messages from the server after it
> > > > > > was received. So I am inlove with sylpheed, and I finished
> > > > > > looking for email clients. Of course I had a rough half-day
> > > > > > of converting maildir to mbox, but I am done with it now,
> > > > > > and I imported it successfuly. It is quite good now.
> > >
> > > Its marked as bleeding edge but its should be rather stable and
> > > its got quite a few more features. The gtk2 version is a bit buggy
> > > (it will crash on rare occasions, but I just start it back up) but
> > > I need the right to left support and very few email programs do
> > > that properly.
> > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If you are happy with the console mutt is great (the only
> > > > > > > two reasons I left it is that it didn't have a folder view
> > > > > > > to see how many emails are in each folder and switching to
> > > > > > > a specific folder can be a bit cumbersome, on the other
> > > > > > > hand it is very good at switching to the next folder with
> > > > > > > unread mail. The other reason is hebrew support, but that
> > > > > > > depends on the terminal or reader)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > I only need japanese and hungarian support, and sylpheed
> > > > > > does a fairly good job in that case also, so I am happy
> > > > > > again.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Seriously, get rid of the kde and gnome crap. You
> > > > > > > > > don't need it. It won't make your life any happier.
> > > > > > > > > And then you will look at the dribbling fools who keep
> > > > > > > > > on drooling over the eye-candy, and laugh at their
> > > > > > > > > constant need to upgrade to the latest hardware that
> > > > > > > > > only makes their room hotter (and fucks up the
> > > > > > > > > environment for the rest of us). And you won't need
> > > > > > > > > to upgrade your computer, because when it is not
> > > > > > > > > running crufty bloated crapware, it's plenty fast
> > > > > > > > > enough.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > How can I get rid of KDE and Gnome? apt-get uninstall
> > > > > > > > kde gnome ??
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Don't run KDE and GNOME programs. Note the clean gtk2
> > > > > > > programs are ok, they don't bring in all the crap only
> > > > > > > gnome programs that depend on the gnome libraries (you can
> > > > > > > see from the dependencies).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Oh, and encourage your favourite hacker to emphasise
> > > > > > > > > code quality and optimisation before useless feaping
> > > > > > > > > creaturism.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Other points that the OP mensioned:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Its a bit tricky to setup, but if you like nice gui login
> > > > > > > but want something lighter then kdm you can use qingy
> > > > > > > (qingy.sf.net) which uses the frame buffer. I'm afraid
> > > > > > > that there is no debian package though. Personally I use
> > > > > > > wdm at the moment, when I have some time I am planning to
> > > > > > > setup qingy.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > As a window manager I use fvwm, but its a taste issue. Its
> > > > > > > a bit harder to setup but is very flexible.
> > > > > > I am happy now with xfce, but I want to try even smaller
> > > > > > ones, so I will give it a shot.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > For text I use lyx to produce latex documents, but I write
> > > > > > > math so office suits are mostly irrelevant anyway (and tex
> > > > > > > is what all journals in my field take anyway, some will
> > > > > > > also accept word, but they are a few a far between (thank
> > > > > > > god ;-) ).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > For a browser I settled on opera which is fast, light and
> > > > > > > a but more complient with IE only sites then mozilla. The
> > > > > > > three main downsides with it are that it not free (you
> > > > > > > either accept an advertisement bar or you pay to get a
> > > > > > > serial), it doesn't change proxy server setups on the fly
> > > > > > > for some reason, and it uses the mozilla plugin for
> > > > > > > loading pdf files which has a memory leak, reaches over a
> > > > > > > Gig on occasion, on the other hand it has an options to
> > > > > > > load previous session on startup so you can just
> > > > > > > close/kill it and reopen to solve the problem. It also has
> > > > > > > a debian package (on their site, not the repository) so
> > > > > > > its easy to install.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I will try opera. Until this point I still used Firefox.
> > > > > > Opera can display java and flash, macromedia, other stuff
> > > > > > like that.? I ocassionally need them. Or I can just keep
> > > > > > firefox for those times,,....>
> > >
> > > It recognized and loads all the mozilla plugins so there is no
> > > problem with java/flash etc. It even runs mplayer through the
> > > mozilla-mplayer plugin.
> > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > For the record, my machine comes up with a bit
> > > > > > > under 30M ram usage running wdm, X, rxvt terminal with a
> > > > > > > screen session running in it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Wow, that is outstanding. I am using 70MB after boot, with
> > > > > > all what I have, one xterm session, and the sylpheed open,
> > > > > > with X and XFce. That is way better than about 10MB free
> > > > > > (now 190MB free) when I used KDE and KDM and all the
> > > > > > K***crap. I am happy I started this thread, and I want to
> > > > > > thank you all for helping. Of course I still keep looking
> > > > > > for good ideas. At the end, I will make a website from what
> > > > > > I learnd.
> > >
> > > I didn't try with sylpheed but ps shows about 20MB usage (which is
> > > more then I like but better then others) so it my machine should
> > > tip the scales at around 50MB for a similar startup setup.
> > >
> > > I do use suspend almost always (software-suspend-2) so I very
> > > rarely cold boot (maybe twice a month) but I think startup time is
> > > around a minute.
> > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Bence
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
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